On Fri, 09 May 2008 00:17:09 -0400, Larry <x@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>In article <hki72496nq7rflstuuukdavl1t376nvek9@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
> richard <i.do.not@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 07 May 2008 21:59:10 -0400, Larry <x@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <gk64241lsp7eso8p936j4o0uhe2t5o1csu@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>> > richard <i.do.not@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 7 May 2008 12:01:47 -0700 (PDT), Branson Hunter
>> >> <bh2322@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >DIGITAL AND INTERNET PRIVACY - LOSSES AND WINS
>> >> >
>> >> >Founding Fathers Know Best? Not exactly. The Fourth Amendment was
>> >> >dumped right here in Los Angeles.
>> >>
>> >> The track record of the 9th circuit speaks for itself. Usually they
>> >> get their decisions overturned.
>> >>
>> >> The 4th amendment is quite clear. It has never given unlimited
search
>> >> powers to any division of law enforcement for any reason.
>> >
>> >Actually, have you read it? It prohibits UNREASONABLE searches and
>> >seizures without a warrant.
>> >
>> >> So no,
>> >> Customs, TSA, and others who control the borders do not have the
legal
>> >> right to go through your laptop and search for what ever do***ents
>> >> they may find not to their liking. You want to search my computer?
Get
>> >> a search warrant.
>> >
>> >Sorry, Richard, but the court just said otherwise.
>> >
>> >And this is a longstanding area where you can be searched without
>> >probable cause or reasonable suspicion. They're called administrative
>> >needs searches - if it serves an administrative need, rather than law
>> >enforcement, generally the search is allowable. Examples of this
>> >include boarding airplanes, entering federal buildings, and yes,
>> >entering the country.
>> >
>> >> But knowing this, I can easily thwart them at their own game.
>> >> Buy a 2nd hard drive. Have nothing on it when I go through customs.
>> >> The other one is in the mail being delivered to my destination.
>> >> Sealed in such a way that I will know if it got tampered with or
not.
>> >
>> >Ooooh, gee, you're soooo smart.
>> >
>> >> However, they can legally search your belongings for certain known
>> >> banned contraband. To my knowleldge, private papers, and laptops are
>> >> not among those.
>> >
>> >Your knowledge, as usual, is ridiculously poor.
>>
>> Well dear boy, a few years ago, there was a case in which the Customs
>> agents had found a passenger on an airline who said was carrying
>> "child ****ography" and took him to court and confiscated the
>> drawings.
>>
>> The Customs office lost the case because the drawings did not meet the
>> criteria for "child ****ography" under USA law.
>
>Okay, assuming this is true (and you don't provide a cite to the case,
>so I just have your word for it), then the government lost the case
>because the drawings were not child ****, NOT because it was an illegal
>search. If it was an illegal search, the case would be dismissed before
>it even got to the point of determining whether the pictures were
>illegal or not.
The guy who persued the case was also an attorney. I had emailed him
several times. His website has since been removed not because of the
case, but mainly due to "netnanny" insisting it was not a good site
and probably lack of interest.
The case involved penned drawings of **** children, mostly girls,
between the ages of 8 and 11. Customs claimed they were drawings of
actual persons.
>
>So, you just proved my point - searches like this are legal.
>
To a point. The searches can only determine if the item is illegal or
not. Now do you really think that customs or TSA is gonna take hours
going through one laptop determining if each and every file is legal
or not? Not without my presence they are not, if it's my laptop.
>> Upon entering the country, I will agree that the Customs people have
>> the legal right to inspect your belongings, including laptops and
>> contents thereof.
>
>So glad you agree what the law is. I'm sure law enforcement officers
>throughout this country are thrilled.
>
>> To a point.
>>
>> But not when it comes to simply boarding a plane and going to a
>> destination within the USA. Yes, they can x-ray and examine luggage.
>> Plugging in the laptop and examining the contents? No.
>> Not on a domestic flight.
>
>Who said they could do this on a domestic flight? In the case that
>started this thread, the person was flying to the US from the
>Philippines.
>
If you have a dozen books in your bag, does this give them the legal
right to read them? The heart of the case was over the matter of
whether or not the customs had the legal right to open files and
determine if the content was illegal or not. Thusly, possibly exposing
trade secrets and intellectual property to those that are not privvy
to them.
Let's say you are coming back from Europe and your breifcase contains
confidential files pertaining to a case. Are they allowed to read
those files? I don't think so. So why are they allowed to view the
contents of a file on a laptop?
To my knowledge, paper is not a banned product.
They can only look to the point that determines whether or not an item
is on the banned list.
>
>> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
>> papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall
>> not be violated.............
>>
>> This has to be applied to domestic flights as well. If they can do
>> this on an airplane, why not on a bus, a train, or any other public
>> trans****tation system?
>
>Who said they do this on domestic flights?
Been to an air****t lately? Your luggage is x-rayed and screened. At
the checkin gate, you have to give up any item you still have in your
pockets. If that item is not allowed on the plane, you don't have the
legal right to keep it. They take it from you. You can have it back
and they'll escort you off the property.
Then, you must walk, barefoot, through a metal detector.
If you're carrying a laptop, some air****ts check it for toxins.
We now have to go through all of this bull**** because King Bush has
determined that you and I are terrorists.
>
>
>> By allowing this search, the 9th circuit has broken the sanctity of
>> the constitution.
>
>If they did, then the Supreme Court will overturn the decision.
>
Most likely. As the 9th circuit has a track record of getting it
wrong.
>> On Monday, I am boarding a plane, and with a laptop. We shall see what
>> they do with it and what happens if they do look inside it.
>
>Will there be child **** or illegal material on that laptop?
No. As I'm gonna send it all to you and then you can email it to me
later.
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