"Macjoubert" <macjoubert@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:1192113331.997367.76610@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Oct 10, 10:30 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 01:11:37 +0100, "Agamemnon"
>>
>>
>>
>> <agamem...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>> >US lawmakers back Armenian 'genocide' bill
>> >2 hours ago
>>
>> >WA****NGTON (AFP) - US lawmakers defied strident warnings by President
>> >George
>> >W. Bush and Turkey by voting Wednesday to label the Ottoman Empire's
>> >World
>> >War I massacre of Armenians as "genocide."
>>
>> >To cheers and applause from emotional Armenians, including elderly
>> >wheelchair-bound survivors, the House of Representatives Foreign
Affairs
>> >Committee voted for the resolution by 27 votes to 21.
>>
>> >Bush and top lieutenants earlier were unusually blunt in attacking the
>> >non-binding resolution, warning that it would trigger Turkish
reprisals
>> >and
>> >undermine US efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East.
>>
>> >The vote "may do grave harm to US-Turkish relations and to US
interests
>> >in
>> >Europe and the Middle East," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack
>> >said.
>>
>> >"Nor will it improve Turkish-Armenian relations or advance
>> >reconciliation
>> >among Turks and Armenians over the terrible events of 1915," he said.
>>
>> >The measure is likely to be sent on to a vote in the full
Democratic-led
>> >House, where a majority has already signed on to the resolution. A
>> >parallel
>> >measure is in the Senate pipeline.
>>
>> >Bryan Ardouny, executive director of the Armenian Assembly of America,
>> >lauded "a historic day" after the committee's vote.
>>
>> >"It is long past time for the US government to acknowledge and affirm
>> >this
>> >horrible chapter of history -- the first genocide of the 20th century
>> >and a
>> >part of history that we must never forget," he said.
>>
>> >The text says the killings of up to 1.5 million Armenians was a
>> >"genocide"
>> >that should be acknowledged fully in US foreign policy towards Turkey,
>> >along
>> >with "the consequences of the failure to realize a just resolution."
>>
>> >While the American-Armenian community celebrated, Turkish President
>> >Abdullah
>> >Gul denounced the vote as "unacceptable" and accused the House members
>> >of
>> >sacrificing US interests to "petty games of domestic politics."
>>
>> >Turkey's ambassador to Wa****ngton, Nabi Sensoy, told AFP the vote was
>> >"very
>> >disappointing" and called on House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to refrain
from
>> >bringing it to a full vote.
>>
>> >Sensoy, who has personally lobbied more than 100 House members against
>> >the
>> >resolution, added that "those who said it won't do any harm, we will
>> >have to
>> >wait and see."
>>
>> >Bush said the resolution would do "great harm" to ties with Turkey, a
>> >Muslim-majority member of NATO whose territory is a crucial transit
>> >point
>> >for US supplies bound for Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>
>> >According to the Armenians, 1.5 million of their kinsmen were killed
>> >from
>> >1915 to 1923 under an Ottoman Empire campaign of de****tation and
murder
>> >that
>> >later encouraged Nazi leader Adolf Hitler's Holocaust against the
Jews.
>>
>> >Rejecting the genocide label, Turkey argues that 250,000 to 500,000
>> >Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife when
Armenians
>> >took up arms for independence in eastern Anatolia during the war.
>>
>> >Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates
>> >also
>> >denounced the measure before the hearing, after veiled threats from
>> >Ankara
>> >that US access to a sprawling air base in southern Turkey could be
>> >denied.
>>
>> >But despite the warnings, the resolution's backers warned the issue
>> >could
>> >not be ignored as they drew parallels to the Holocaust and the
>> >present-day
>> >bloodshed in the Sudanese region of Darfur.
>>
>> >"We've been told the timing is bad," Democratic House member Gary
>> >Ackerman
>> >said in an emotional hearing that lasted nearly four hours. "But the
>> >timing
>> >was bad for the Armenian people in 1915."
>>
>> >Republican Representative Christopher Smith said the resolution was
not
>> >a
>> >slight on modern Turkey, adding: "Friends don't let friends commit
>> >crimes
>> >against humanity."
>>
>> >Republican lawmaker Dan Burton, however, said passage of the genocide
>> >resolution could endanger US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>
>> >"We're in the middle of two wars. We have troops out there who are at
>> >risk.
>> >And we're talking about kicking an ally in the teeth. It is crazy."
>>
>> >Gates said that about 70 percent of all Iraq-bound US air cargo, 95
>> >percent
>> >of tough new mine-resistant vehicles and one-third of the military's
>> >fuel
>> >transit through Turkey.
>>
>> >US commanders "believe, clearly, that access to airfields and to the
>> >roads
>> >and so on in Turkey would be very much put at risk if this resolution
>> >p*****
>> >and the Turks react as strongly as we believe they will," he said.
>>
>> >FACTBOX: Background to Turkish Armenian massacres dispute
>> >Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:53pm EDT
>>
>> >(Reuters) - The U.S. House of Representatives Foreign Affairs
Committee
>> >passed a symbolic resolution on Wednesday calling the 1915 massacre of
>> >Armenians genocide, despite White House warnings it would damage
>> >U.S.-Turkish ties.
>>
>> >Here are some key facts about the issue:
>>
>> >* THE BACKGROUND:
>>
>> >-- In the late 19th century the Ottoman Empire's Armenian minority,
>> >numbering an estimated 2 million, was encouraged by exiled groups in
the
>> >United States, Geneva and in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, to assert
>> >their
>> >nationalism.
>>
>> >-- Repression by Ottoman irregulars, mainly Kurds, led to the massacre
>> >of
>> >some 30,000 Armenians in eastern Anatolia in 1894-1896. Several
thousand
>> >more were killed in Constantinople in August 1896 after Armenian
>> >extremists
>> >seized the Ottoman Bank to draw attention to their cause.
>>
>> >-- Their massacres were halted after the Great Powers threatened to
>> >intervene.
>>
>> >* WHAT HAPPENED IN 1915:
>>
>> >-- As the Ottomans fought Russian forces in eastern Anatolia during
>> >World
>> >War One, many Armenians formed partisan groups to assist the invading
>> >Russian armies.
>>
>> >-- On April 24, 1915, Turkey arrested and killed hundreds of Armenian
>> >intelligentsia. In May of that year Ottoman commanders began mass
>> >de****tation of Armenians from eastern Turkey thinking they might
assist
>> >Russian invaders.
>>
>> >-- Thousands were marched from the Anatolian borders toward Syria and
>> >Mesopotamia (now Iraq) and Armenians say some 1.5 million died either
in
>> >massacres or from starvation or deprivation as they were marched
through
>> >the
>> >desert.
>>
>> >* TURKEY'S VIEW:
>>
>> >-- Turkey has always denied there was a systematic campaign to
>> >annihilate
>> >Armenians, saying that thousands of Turks and Armenians died in
>> >inter-ethnic
>> >violence as the Ottoman Empire started to collapse and fought a
Russian
>> >invasion of its eastern provinces during World War One.
>>
>> >-- The modern Turkish republic was established in 1923 after the
Ottoman
>> >empire collapsed.
>>
>> Henry Morgenthau was an eyewitness to the Armenian Genocide. You can
>> read his chilling account of this monumental crime
>> atwww.armenian-genocide.org/statement_morgenthau.html.
>>
>> Morgenthau just happened to be U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire
>> from 1913 to 1916.
>>
>> The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the
>> Crime of Genocide describes genocide as "acts committed with intent to
>> destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
>> religious group."
>>
>> Between 1915 and 1923 the Ottoman government systematically murdered
>> 1.5 MILLION Armenians out of a pre-1915 population of ~2.5 million.
>> The remainder were de****ted or fled for their lives. By 1923 the
>> Armenian population in areas controlled by Turkey had been expunged.
>> Does massacring 60% of an ethnic/religious group and driving the
>> remainder into exile possibly meet the definition of "genocide"? Or is
>> it not really "genocide", since 40% of them somehow managed to escape
>> with their lives? Truth always comes at a price, but the cost of
>> falsehood and deceit is even higher. And as long as the Turkish
>> government continues to"lie and deny" the reality of the Armenian
>> genocide it cannot be accepted and respected as a mature and
>> responsible member of the community of nations. And if we let our
>> country act as an "enabler" in this dance of deceit and denial then we
>> surrender any moral authority to condemn the crime of genocide
>> elsewhere in the world.
>> ----
>> Diogenes (cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
>>
>> The wars are long, the peace is frail
>> The madmen come again . . . .
>
> It makes no difference whether the Ottoman Empire exists or not, the
> people do, they were Turks and they are Turks now, and an arrogant
> government is forbidding recalcitrance which is in itself shameful.
> No one is blaming the current crop of Turks for what happened, but
> just acknowledgment of the crime by a predecessor government.
> Similarly the 3rd Reich doesn't exist, but Germans still hold a
> respectful view towards the Holocaust.
The problem with your statements above reflex the lay man who is civilized
and mature enough to accept their own fault and applogise for it.
Unfortunately we are talking turkeys in here and neither they have the
brain
or honour to recognise their wrong doings. This is exactly why turkey is
still recognised as thirth world country who's democracy, human rights,
economy etc, lags years of any given EU states.
I want to specify the root cause of the problem turkeys denial of all
their
genocides which they have brutally commited (Greeks, Pontians, Kurds,
Armenians, Arabs, Assyrians, Keldanis, Surriyanis, etc,.). Whether you
beileve it or not but only 9% of the population in tukey have nothing to
do
with central asian people (turks). 91% of the people in turkey either
Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Pontians, Arabs, Assyrians, Albenians, Serbians
etc,. Every single ethnicities in turkey have to deny of their own roots
and
call themselves "turks, proud turks". These people don't even understand
each other because of the language barrier. I mentioned this in my another
post but shortly turkish language with its weak structure made everyone in
turkey stupid and ignorant. What do you expect if you use the centarl
asian
gramer with Arabic, Greek, Kurdish, Armenian, Assyrian etc,. words. This
is
exactly as same as a foreign national speaking english by using their own
grammer.
For you or any civilized person who listens and read about the Armenian
genocide would instantly condemns the killings and would have no doubt
this
being a genocide. But when it comes to the turk, this is impossible, the
language they use would make it impossible for them to grasp even simple
facts. Any time you try to translate anyting to turkish language words
will
lose their meanin.
>
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