On Oct 14, 11:04 am, "Altan Loker (real name)"
<allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Oct 13, 7:34 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:42:54 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
> > <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >On Oct 12, 7:11 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:41:26 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
> > >> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >> >I heard about the problem of "Armenian genocide" for the first
time=
at
> > >> >age 26 when I went to US. This fact alone shows that there is no
> > >> >hostility between Armenians and Turks in Turkey.
>
> > >> So nobody in Turkey speaks of the Armenian Genocide, therefore it
did
> > >> not happen? Here is an alternative explanation for you to ponder,
> > >> Altan:
>
> > >> Associated Press, 11 Oct 2007
>
> > >> ISTANBUL, Turkey - The son of a journalist killed earlier this year
> > >> after calling the massacre of Armenians genocide was convicted
> > >> Thursday of insulting Turkey's identity for republi****ng his
father's
> > >> remarks.
>
> > >> Arat Dink, editor of the Armenian newspaper Agos, and publisher
Serk=
is
> > >> Seropyan each received a one-year suspended sentence for "insulting
> > >> Turkishness," said their lawyer, Erdal Dogan. He said they would
> > >> appeal the sentences.
>
> > >> >I went to the public library in New York and looked at a few
magazi=
nes
> > >> >published in the1920s. If I remember correctly, it was in New
State=
sman
> > >> >that I read about a joint session of US Congress dealing with the
A=
rmenian
> > >> >genocide allegation.
>
> > >> If you wish to base your version of history on an article you think
> > >> you read in a magazine published in the 1920's, be my guest.
However
> > >> the link below will provide the op****tunity to enhance your
historic=
al
> > >> knowledge very easily. The source is, of course, the U.S.
Ambassador
> > >> to Turkey at the time of the genocide.
>
> > >>http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> > >> I presume you will contend that Ambassador Morgenthau was just a
> > >> willing tool of the "vast Armenian conspiracy" to discredit the
> > >> Turkish government of 1916.
>
> > >> Santayana wrote that "Those who refuse to learn from history are
> > >> condemned to relive it."
>
> > >> And those who deny the reality of history render
themselves>incapabl=
e< of learning from it, so their destiny to relive the worst
>
> > >> episodes in their history becomes a self-inflicted wound. Does the
> > >> Turkish word "kismet" have any relevance here?
>
> > >> ---- =20
> > >> Diogenes (cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
>
> > >> The wars are long, the peace is frail
> > >> The madmen come again . . . .
>
> > >So far, Armenians said Turks did this and that, and Turks said
> > >Armenians did this and that, and both sides rejected the accusations.
> > >No solution of the problem is reached in this way and cannot be
> > >reached. But you are continuing to do the same thing and thinking
that
> > >I am doing the same thing too. You are not understanding what I mean.
> > >The problem can be solved only if all parties involved open their
> > >archives to investigation. But Armenians do not open their archives
> > >and do not accept objective investigation. Even this undeniable and
> > >non-denied fact can be seen as a proof of the fact that the Armenians
> > >were the guilty party. But I still do not claim that I proved
anything
> > >by saying that. The solution can be reached only through the honest
> > >examination of the do***ents in the archives.
>
> > Pardon my ignorance, but to what "Armenian archives" do you refer? You
> > realize, of course, that at the time of the genocide the victims were,
> > in fact, Turkish citizens (or Ottoman, if you prefer). There was no
> > Armenian government to establish such "archives", since the surviving
> > Armenians were lucky to escape with their lives and the clothes on
> > their backs (and only ~ 40% were that fortunate).
>
> > >Similarly, I do not claim that I proved anything by telling about the
> > >discussion of the problem in the US Congress in 1920s, as you think I
> > >do. I mentioned that event to mean that the Congressmen of that time
> > >had a better chance of knowing the truth compared to the Congressmen
> > >of today, because live re****ts from eyewitness, such as American
> > >missionaries working in the area, were available in 1920s.
>
> > Then a "live re****t from an eyewitness" who happened to be the U.S.
> > Ambassador to Turkey at the time should be a central focus of the
> > entire discussion. Much as I dislike repeating myself, Ambassador
> > Morgenthau's observations of the Armenian Genocide are a matter of
> > public record.
>
> >http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> > It is interesting that not one sup****ter of the Turkish government's
> > version of history is willing to acknowledge the existence of Mr.
> > Morgenthau's re****t, let alone discuss it. The reason becomes
> > painfully obvious.to anyone who reads it.
>
> > >I also mentioned an undeniable present-day proof of the fact that the
> > >present-day Congressmen are likely to approach the problem with the
> > >aim of securing undeserved political gains. A present-day Senator who
> > >was sup****ting the Armenian thesis stopped doing that when the
> > >President told him that he was harming US interests. He explained
this
> > >change in his attitude by saying that he was an American before being
> > >a politician. This is an admission of the fact that he had sup****ted
> > >the Armenians to secure political gains in complete disregard of the
> > >interests of his country. A man like this cannot be assumed to have
> > >behaved with the aim of helping the Armenians. He was using them to
> > >secure political gains just as many Western diplomats used the
> > >Armenians of the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit and thereby
> > >caused much suffering to them and to Turks. In fact, many politicians
> > >of many countries are still using the Armenians for personal profit.
> > >They are trying to attract the votes of the children of the Armenians
> > >they claim were killed by the Turks. This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> > Is it your contention that this entire initiative is just a political
> > ploy to cater to the "Armenian lobby"? I was not aware that such a
> > powerful voting block was making and breaking American politicians and
> > dictating national policy. Apparently I haven't been paying attention.
>
> > >In a general way, I tried, and I am still trying, to draw attention
to
> > >what is ignored by all parties. Turks are not guilty of having
> > >committed genocide. There are still Armenians living in piece in
> > >Turkey. I pass everyday by a large Armenian hospital on one of the
> > >main streets of Istanbul, the Republic Street. There has never been
> > >any sign of hostility against that institution or against Armenians
> > >who use it or Armenians who did not commit crimes against Turks and
> > >Turkey. Where is the genocide? An Armenian journalist, H rant Dink,
> > >was killed recently by an underage fanatic, but huge Turkish crowds
> > >protested it carrying banners reading "We all are H rant Dinks."
>
> > And as I noted previously his son republished his remarks and was just
> > convicted in court of "insulting Turkishness". Is this an example of
> > openness and tolerance in Turkish society?
>
> > >Where
> > >is the genocide? In opposition to this, more than 60 innocent Turkish
> > >diplomats have been murdered by Armenians all over the world long
> > >after the events of Eastern Turkey. No Armenian protested. Was this
> > >not the continuation of the true Armenian genocide?
>
> > Murder, however criminally shameful, is murder. And genocide, however
> > *nationally* shameful, is genocide. There is a difference, you know.
> > Allow me to provide the definition:
>
> > The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the
> > Crime of Genocide describes genocide as "acts committed with intent to
> > destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
> > religious group."
>
> > >Turks are not guilty of having committed genocide, but they are
guilty
> > >of not admitting that Armenians committed that crime against the
Turks
> > >with the help of foreign powers, as I explained in a previous post.
>
> > The *Armenians* committed genocide against the *Turks*!! Seriously,
> > Altan, is this preposterous delusion actually common in Turkey? I
> > sincerely hope not, because if so then there it raises serious doubts
> > about the ability of an entire nation to deal with reality.
>
> > >admitting that truth, the Turks can help Armenians to free themselves
> > >from the obsessive compulsive behavior caused by an imagined event of
> > >genocide, which keeps harming their interests. This is also the only
> > >way the Turks can solve their Armenian problem. Armenians can free
> > >themselves from their schizophrenic inclinations by not allowing
> > >others to use them and by abstaining from using them. Succeeding in
> > >using, controlling the environment is a good remedy against
> > >schizophrenia, but the way Armenians use Western diplomats is
> > >inseparable from being used by them. This aggravates their
> > >schizophrenic disorder. I relate below an undeniable and non-denied
> > >fact of recent past which exposes the truth which the Turks really
> > >deny.
>
> > Having no psychiatric credentials I will not pass judgement on an
> > individual, let alone a large group of people (nor, for that matter,
> > should you). However when an entire ethnic group is either murdered
> > wholesale or driven into exile there is obviously a profound effect on
> > the entire world-view of the survivors and their descendants.
>
> > Before the Nazi Holocaust the Jewish people were scattered across the
> > world with a common religious, but not political identity. But as a
> > result of that genocide there now exists the state of Israel, a
> > political and military world power whose slogan is "Never again".
> > Although the Jews certainly are not about to thank him for it, this
> > change in their world-view was due to the genocide perpetrated by one
> > Adolph Hitler. Does the present Israeli determination to survive as a
> > people fit
>
> ...
>
> read more =BB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If Russians became powerfull enough to attack Eastern Turkey,
Armenians will form gangs and a start attacking Turkish villages
again. No Armenian can deny this. And after we defeat those Russian
Armies, Armenians will and should be asked to leave voluntarily or be
de****ted. this is how stupid they are.
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