On 14 Oct, 22:47, Serhan Ogan <serhano...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Oct 14, 11:04 am, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
>
>
>
>
> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > On Oct 13, 7:34 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:42:54 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
> > > <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > >On Oct 12, 7:11 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:41:26 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
> > > >> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > > >> >I heard about the problem of "Armenian genocide" for the first
ti=
me at
> > > >> >age 26 when I went to US. This fact alone shows that there is no
> > > >> >hostility between Armenians and Turks in Turkey.
>
> > > >> So nobody in Turkey speaks of the Armenian Genocide, therefore it
=
did
> > > >> not happen? Here is an alternative explanation for you to ponder,
> > > >> Altan:
>
> > > >> Associated Press, 11 Oct 2007
>
> > > >> ISTANBUL, Turkey - The son of a journalist killed earlier this
year
> > > >> after calling the massacre of Armenians genocide was convicted
> > > >> Thursday of insulting Turkey's identity for republi****ng his
fathe=
r's
> > > >> remarks.
>
> > > >> Arat Dink, editor of the Armenian newspaper Agos, and publisher
Se=
rkis
> > > >> Seropyan each received a one-year suspended sentence for
"insulting
> > > >> Turkishness," said their lawyer, Erdal Dogan. He said they would
> > > >> appeal the sentences.
>
> > > >> >I went to the public library in New York and looked at a few
maga=
zines
> > > >> >published in the1920s. If I remember correctly, it was in New
Sta=
tesman
> > > >> >that I read about a joint session of US Congress dealing with
the=
Armenian
> > > >> >genocide allegation.
>
> > > >> If you wish to base your version of history on an article you
think
> > > >> you read in a magazine published in the 1920's, be my guest.
Howev=
er
> > > >> the link below will provide the op****tunity to enhance your
histor=
ical
> > > >> knowledge very easily. The source is, of course, the U.S.
Ambassad=
or
> > > >> to Turkey at the time of the genocide.
>
> > > >>http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> > > >> I presume you will contend that Ambassador Morgenthau was just a
> > > >> willing tool of the "vast Armenian conspiracy" to discredit the
> > > >> Turkish government of 1916.
>
> > > >> Santayana wrote that "Those who refuse to learn from history are
> > > >> condemned to relive it."
>
> > > >> And those who deny the reality of history render
themselves>incapa=
ble< of learning from it, so their destiny to relive the worst
>
> > > >> episodes in their history becomes a self-inflicted wound. Does
the
> > > >> Turkish word "kismet" have any relevance here?
>
> > > >> ---- =20
> > > >> Diogenes (cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
>
> > > >> The wars are long, the peace is frail
> > > >> The madmen come again . . . .
>
> > > >So far, Armenians said Turks did this and that, and Turks said
> > > >Armenians did this and that, and both sides rejected the
accusations.
> > > >No solution of the problem is reached in this way and cannot be
> > > >reached. But you are continuing to do the same thing and thinking
th=
at
> > > >I am doing the same thing too. You are not understanding what I
mean.
> > > >The problem can be solved only if all parties involved open their
> > > >archives to investigation. But Armenians do not open their archives
> > > >and do not accept objective investigation. Even this undeniable and
> > > >non-denied fact can be seen as a proof of the fact that the
Armenians
> > > >were the guilty party. But I still do not claim that I proved
anythi=
ng
> > > >by saying that. The solution can be reached only through the honest
> > > >examination of the do***ents in the archives.
>
> > > Pardon my ignorance, but to what "Armenian archives" do you refer?
You
> > > realize, of course, that at the time of the genocide the victims
were,
> > > in fact, Turkish citizens (or Ottoman, if you prefer). There was no
> > > Armenian government to establish such "archives", since the
surviving
> > > Armenians were lucky to escape with their lives and the clothes on
> > > their backs (and only ~ 40% were that fortunate).
>
> > > >Similarly, I do not claim that I proved anything by telling about
the
> > > >discussion of the problem in the US Congress in 1920s, as you think
I
> > > >do. I mentioned that event to mean that the Congressmen of that
time
> > > >had a better chance of knowing the truth compared to the
Congressmen
> > > >of today, because live re****ts from eyewitness, such as American
> > > >missionaries working in the area, were available in 1920s.
>
> > > Then a "live re****t from an eyewitness" who happened to be the U.S.
> > > Ambassador to Turkey at the time should be a central focus of the
> > > entire discussion. Much as I dislike repeating myself, Ambassador
> > > Morgenthau's observations of the Armenian Genocide are a matter of
> > > public record.
>
> > >http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> > > It is interesting that not one sup****ter of the Turkish government's
> > > version of history is willing to acknowledge the existence of Mr.
> > > Morgenthau's re****t, let alone discuss it. The reason becomes
> > > painfully obvious.to anyone who reads it.
>
> > > >I also mentioned an undeniable present-day proof of the fact that
the
> > > >present-day Congressmen are likely to approach the problem with the
> > > >aim of securing undeserved political gains. A present-day Senator
who
> > > >was sup****ting the Armenian thesis stopped doing that when the
> > > >President told him that he was harming US interests. He explained
th=
is
> > > >change in his attitude by saying that he was an American before
being
> > > >a politician. This is an admission of the fact that he had
sup****ted
> > > >the Armenians to secure political gains in complete disregard of
the
> > > >interests of his country. A man like this cannot be assumed to have
> > > >behaved with the aim of helping the Armenians. He was using them to
> > > >secure political gains just as many Western diplomats used the
> > > >Armenians of the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit and thereby
> > > >caused much suffering to them and to Turks. In fact, many
politicians
> > > >of many countries are still using the Armenians for personal
profit.
> > > >They are trying to attract the votes of the children of the
Armenians
> > > >they claim were killed by the Turks. This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> > > Is it your contention that this entire initiative is just a
political
> > > ploy to cater to the "Armenian lobby"? I was not aware that such a
> > > powerful voting block was making and breaking American politicians
and
> > > dictating national policy. Apparently I haven't been paying
attention.
>
> > > >In a general way, I tried, and I am still trying, to draw attention
=
to
> > > >what is ignored by all parties. Turks are not guilty of having
> > > >committed genocide. There are still Armenians living in piece in
> > > >Turkey. I pass everyday by a large Armenian hospital on one of the
> > > >main streets of Istanbul, the Republic Street. There has never been
> > > >any sign of hostility against that institution or against Armenians
> > > >who use it or Armenians who did not commit crimes against Turks and
> > > >Turkey. Where is the genocide? An Armenian journalist, H rant Dink,
> > > >was killed recently by an underage fanatic, but huge Turkish crowds
> > > >protested it carrying banners reading "We all are H rant Dinks."
>
> > > And as I noted previously his son republished his remarks and was
just
> > > convicted in court of "insulting Turkishness". Is this an example of
> > > openness and tolerance in Turkish society?
>
> > > >Where
> > > >is the genocide? In opposition to this, more than 60 innocent
Turkish
> > > >diplomats have been murdered by Armenians all over the world long
> > > >after the events of Eastern Turkey. No Armenian protested. Was this
> > > >not the continuation of the true Armenian genocide?
>
> > > Murder, however criminally shameful, is murder. And genocide,
however
> > > *nationally* shameful, is genocide. There is a difference, you know.
> > > Allow me to provide the definition:
>
> > > The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of
the
> > > Crime of Genocide describes genocide as "acts committed with intent
to
> > > destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
> > > religious group."
>
> > > >Turks are not guilty of having committed genocide, but they are
guil=
ty
> > > >of not admitting that Armenians committed that crime against the
Tur=
ks
> > > >with the help of foreign powers, as I explained in a previous post.
>
> > > The *Armenians* committed genocide against the *Turks*!! Seriously,
> > > Altan, is this preposterous delusion actually common in Turkey? I
> > > sincerely hope not, because if so then there it raises serious
doubts
> > > about the ability of an entire nation to deal with reality.
>
> > > >admitting that truth, the Turks can help Armenians to free
themselves
> > > >from the obsessive compulsive behavior caused by an imagined event
of
> > > >genocide, which keeps harming their interests. This is also the
only
> > > >way the Turks can solve their Armenian problem. Armenians can free
> > > >themselves from their schizophrenic inclinations by not allowing
> > > >others to use them and by abstaining from using them. Succeeding in
> > > >using, controlling the environment is a good remedy against
> > > >schizophrenia, but the way Armenians use Western diplomats is
> > > >inseparable from being used by them. This aggravates their
> > > >schizophrenic disorder. I relate below an undeniable and non-denied
> > > >fact of recent past which exposes the truth which the Turks really
> > > >deny.
>
> > > Having no psychiatric credentials I will not pass judgement on an
> > > individual, let alone a large group of people (nor, for that matter,
> > > should you). However when an entire ethnic group is either murdered
> > > wholesale or driven into exile there is obviously a profound effect
on
> > > the entire world-view of the survivors and their descendants.
>
> > > Before the Nazi Holocaust the Jewish people were scattered across
the
> > > world with a common religious, but not political identity. But as a
> > > result of that genocide there now exists the state of Israel, a
> > > political and military world power whose slogan is "Never again".
> > > Although the Jews certainly are not about to thank him for it, this
> > > change in their world-view was due to the genocide perpetrated by
one
> > > Adolph Hitler. Does the present Israeli determination to survive as
a
> > > people fit
>
> > ...
>
> > read more =BB- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If Russians became powerfull enough to attack Eastern Turkey,
> Armenians will form gangs and a start attacking Turkish villages
> again. No Armenian can deny this.
You ****en sick mongoloid asian monkey called a turk!
Why do you have to judge others with your own sick mentality. The
place you refering as eastern turkey was called Armenian land untill
your barbaric state genocided 1.5 million Armenian and your fascist
turkish state brought Pontians for assimilation reasons and then when
the pontians could not handle the wheather conditions they left it to
Kurds. So your sentence above is complete rubbish as there are no
turks in eastern turkey and I don't think Armenians would ever attack
their own brothers.
You see turkish piece of ****, mongoloid son of a monkey called a
turk.
If everyone had the same mentality as yours then we would have seen
massacres all around the world but fortunately world moved on from the
dark ages. Think about it, after several genocides that Kurds
encountered under their arab rullers in Iraq. When the time came
despite Kurds had everything in terms of man power and arms still they
did not attack or massacred defensless Arab people. Kurds even willing
to wait Kerkuk to join Kurdistan through democratic and
internationally observed referandum.
> And after we defeat those Russian
> Armies, Armenians will and should be asked to leave voluntarily or be
> de****ted. this is how stupid they are.- Hide quoted text -
Do you think that once the Kurds take control of Kerkuk then all the
other ethnicities would have to leave the city? Why do you think when
the ally forces won the I. and II world wars they did not asked the
habitats of Germany, Japan, Itally etc, to leave the country?
Your ****en barbarian turkish state is perpetrating another genocide
attempt against the Kurds in the Kurdish populated areas of Turkey.
Whole world is watching live of your genocide attempt... Don't think
you are fooling anyone, believe me you are only fooling yourself...
>
> - Show quoted text -
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