On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:04:29 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
<alloker@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>On Oct 13, 7:34 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:42:54 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >On Oct 12, 7:11 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:41:26 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>>
>> >> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >> >I heard about the problem of "Armenian genocide" for the first time
at
>> >> >age 26 when I went to US. This fact alone shows that there is no
>> >> >hostility between Armenians and Turks in Turkey.
>>
>> >> So nobody in Turkey speaks of the Armenian Genocide, therefore it
did
>> >> not happen? Here is an alternative explanation for you to ponder,
>> >> Altan:
>>
>> >> Associated Press, 11 Oct 2007
>>
>> >> ISTANBUL, Turkey - The son of a journalist killed earlier this year
>> >> after calling the massacre of Armenians genocide was convicted
>> >> Thursday of insulting Turkey's identity for republi****ng his
father's
>> >> remarks.
>>
>> >> Arat Dink, editor of the Armenian newspaper Agos, and publisher
Serkis
>> >> Seropyan each received a one-year suspended sentence for "insulting
>> >> Turkishness," said their lawyer, Erdal Dogan. He said they would
>> >> appeal the sentences.
>>
>> >> >I went to the public library in New York and looked at a few
magazines
>> >> >published in the1920s. If I remember correctly, it was in New
Statesman
>> >> >that I read about a joint session of US Congress dealing with the
Armenian
>> >> >genocide allegation.
>>
>> >> If you wish to base your version of history on an article you think
>> >> you read in a magazine published in the 1920's, be my guest. However
>> >> the link below will provide the op****tunity to enhance your
historical
>> >> knowledge very easily. The source is, of course, the U.S. Ambassador
>> >> to Turkey at the time of the genocide.
>>
>> >>http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>>
>> >> I presume you will contend that Ambassador Morgenthau was just a
>> >> willing tool of the "vast Armenian conspiracy" to discredit the
>> >> Turkish government of 1916.
>>
>> >> Santayana wrote that "Those who refuse to learn from history are
>> >> condemned to relive it."
>>
>> >> And those who deny the reality of history render
themselves>incapable< of learning from it, so their destiny to relive the
worst
>>
>> >> episodes in their history becomes a self-inflicted wound. Does the
>> >> Turkish word "kismet" have any relevance here?
>>
>> >> ----
>> >> Diogenes (cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
>>
>> >> The wars are long, the peace is frail
>> >> The madmen come again . . . .
>>
>> >So far, Armenians said Turks did this and that, and Turks said
>> >Armenians did this and that, and both sides rejected the accusations.
>> >No solution of the problem is reached in this way and cannot be
>> >reached. But you are continuing to do the same thing and thinking that
>> >I am doing the same thing too. You are not understanding what I mean.
>> >The problem can be solved only if all parties involved open their
>> >archives to investigation. But Armenians do not open their archives
>> >and do not accept objective investigation. Even this undeniable and
>> >non-denied fact can be seen as a proof of the fact that the Armenians
>> >were the guilty party. But I still do not claim that I proved anything
>> >by saying that. The solution can be reached only through the honest
>> >examination of the do***ents in the archives.
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance, but to what "Armenian archives" do you refer? You
>> realize, of course, that at the time of the genocide the victims were,
>> in fact, Turkish citizens (or Ottoman, if you prefer). There was no
>> Armenian government to establish such "archives", since the surviving
>> Armenians were lucky to escape with their lives and the clothes on
>> their backs (and only ~ 40% were that fortunate).
>>
>> >Similarly, I do not claim that I proved anything by telling about the
>> >discussion of the problem in the US Congress in 1920s, as you think I
>> >do. I mentioned that event to mean that the Congressmen of that time
>> >had a better chance of knowing the truth compared to the Congressmen
>> >of today, because live re****ts from eyewitness, such as American
>> >missionaries working in the area, were available in 1920s.
>>
>> Then a "live re****t from an eyewitness" who happened to be the U.S.
>> Ambassador to Turkey at the time should be a central focus of the
>> entire discussion. Much as I dislike repeating myself, Ambassador
>> Morgenthau's observations of the Armenian Genocide are a matter of
>> public record.
>>
>> http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>>
>> It is interesting that not one sup****ter of the Turkish government's
>> version of history is willing to acknowledge the existence of Mr.
>> Morgenthau's re****t, let alone discuss it. The reason becomes
>> painfully obvious.to anyone who reads it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >I also mentioned an undeniable present-day proof of the fact that the
>> >present-day Congressmen are likely to approach the problem with the
>> >aim of securing undeserved political gains. A present-day Senator who
>> >was sup****ting the Armenian thesis stopped doing that when the
>> >President told him that he was harming US interests. He explained this
>> >change in his attitude by saying that he was an American before being
>> >a politician. This is an admission of the fact that he had sup****ted
>> >the Armenians to secure political gains in complete disregard of the
>> >interests of his country. A man like this cannot be assumed to have
>> >behaved with the aim of helping the Armenians. He was using them to
>> >secure political gains just as many Western diplomats used the
>> >Armenians of the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit and thereby
>> >caused much suffering to them and to Turks. In fact, many politicians
>> >of many countries are still using the Armenians for personal profit.
>> >They are trying to attract the votes of the children of the Armenians
>> >they claim were killed by the Turks. This is absolutely ridiculous.
>>
>> Is it your contention that this entire initiative is just a political
>> ploy to cater to the "Armenian lobby"? I was not aware that such a
>> powerful voting block was making and breaking American politicians and
>> dictating national policy. Apparently I haven't been paying attention.
>>
>> >In a general way, I tried, and I am still trying, to draw attention to
>> >what is ignored by all parties. Turks are not guilty of having
>> >committed genocide. There are still Armenians living in piece in
>> >Turkey. I pass everyday by a large Armenian hospital on one of the
>> >main streets of Istanbul, the Republic Street. There has never been
>> >any sign of hostility against that institution or against Armenians
>> >who use it or Armenians who did not commit crimes against Turks and
>> >Turkey. Where is the genocide? An Armenian journalist, H rant Dink,
>> >was killed recently by an underage fanatic, but huge Turkish crowds
>> >protested it carrying banners reading "We all are H rant Dinks."
>>
>> And as I noted previously his son republished his remarks and was just
>> convicted in court of "insulting Turkishness". Is this an example of
>> openness and tolerance in Turkish society?
>>
>> >Where
>> >is the genocide? In opposition to this, more than 60 innocent Turkish
>> >diplomats have been murdered by Armenians all over the world long
>> >after the events of Eastern Turkey. No Armenian protested. Was this
>> >not the continuation of the true Armenian genocide?
>>
>> Murder, however criminally shameful, is murder. And genocide, however
>> *nationally* shameful, is genocide. There is a difference, you know.
>> Allow me to provide the definition:
>>
>> The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the
>> Crime of Genocide describes genocide as "acts committed with intent to
>> destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
>> religious group."
>>
>> >Turks are not guilty of having committed genocide, but they are guilty
>> >of not admitting that Armenians committed that crime against the Turks
>> >with the help of foreign powers, as I explained in a previous post.
>>
>> The *Armenians* committed genocide against the *Turks*!! Seriously,
>> Altan, is this preposterous delusion actually common in Turkey? I
>> sincerely hope not, because if so then there it raises serious doubts
>> about the ability of an entire nation to deal with reality.
>>
>> >admitting that truth, the Turks can help Armenians to free themselves
>> >from the obsessive compulsive behavior caused by an imagined event of
>> >genocide, which keeps harming their interests. This is also the only
>> >way the Turks can solve their Armenian problem. Armenians can free
>> >themselves from their schizophrenic inclinations by not allowing
>> >others to use them and by abstaining from using them. Succeeding in
>> >using, controlling the environment is a good remedy against
>> >schizophrenia, but the way Armenians use Western diplomats is
>> >inseparable from being used by them. This aggravates their
>> >schizophrenic disorder. I relate below an undeniable and non-denied
>> >fact of recent past which exposes the truth which the Turks really
>> >deny.
>>
>> Having no psychiatric credentials I will not pass judgement on an
>> individual, let alone a large group of people (nor, for that matter,
>> should you). However when an entire ethnic group is either murdered
>> wholesale or driven into exile there is obviously a profound effect on
>> the entire world-view of the survivors and their descendants.
>>
>> Before the Nazi Holocaust the Jewish people were scattered across the
>> world with a common religious, but not political identity. But as a
>> result of that genocide there now exists the state of Israel, a
>> political and military world power whose slogan is "Never again".
>> Although the Jews certainly are not about to thank him for it, this
>> change in their world-view was due to the genocide perpetrated by one
>> Adolph Hitler. Does the present Israeli determination to survive as a
>> people fit into your definition of a "schizophrenic disorder"?
>>
>>
>>
>> >Armenians invited a Turkish mayor to Erivan, the capital of Armenia,
>> >expecting to hear from him what they would like to hear, because they
>> >knew him. They got what they wanted. The mayor talked about peace,
>> >good neighbor relations, cooperation, etc., and said: "We don't want
>> >to butcher you anymore." In reality, both- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -...
>>
>> read more »
>
>
>The Armenians who subjected the Turks to genocide had many
>organizations, or gangs, that left behind many do***ents. For example,
>one of them is a letter, found by Turks, sent by one gang to another
>telling how many Turks they killed in Van, and how many sre left whom
>they will kill. This happened happened even befor Russian army entered
>Turkey. If Armenians accept to open their archives, Turks will tell
>them which archives. But Armenians do not say that they do not have
>archives. They just say that their historians are proved the genocide,
>and that they do not wish to investigate the matter any more. I heard
>this in the HARD TALK program of BBC. A honest investigation will
>expose that Armenians are the culprits of genocide, and this is the
>real reason why they do not wish to open their archives and allow
>common investigation. They have no right to accuse the Turks as long
>as they reject objective investigation.
>
>The third-nation politicians who accuse Turkey are doing this for
>political reasons, and they use materials produced, or forged, by
>Armenians and those who sup****t them for securing gains. Besides,
>telling, inventing tales of terror does not expose any truth.
>Objective investigation based on do***ents that expose the facts, not
>opinions, is necessary. Armenians never opened their archives that
>expose facts.
>
>The fact that most Turks were not aware of an Armenian problem till
>recently does prove that there is no hostility between Turks and
>Armenians in Turkey, and this proves that Turks did not subject
>Armenians to Genocide. Armenians outside Turkey keep accusing and
>attacking the Turks because they have been used by foreign powers and
>suffered much because of that, together with the Turks. They are so
>active in accusing the Turks because of their obsessive compulsive and
>schizophrenic inclinations caused by being abused and harmed.
>
>I will no longer reply the dishonest posts of this group. Even the
>fact that that they keep distorting what I am saying is a proof and a
>continuation of their sins.
Old American saying, Altan: If you can't stand the heat, get the hell
out of the kitchen.
Old American saying #2: Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
----
Diogenes (cdhoran@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
|
