On Oct 13, 7:34 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 22:42:54 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
>
>
>
>
> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >On Oct 12, 7:11 pm, Diogenes <cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 02:41:26 -0700, "Altan Loker (real name)"
>
> >> <allo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> >I heard about the problem of "Armenian genocide" for the first time
at
> >> >age 26 when I went to US. This fact alone shows that there is no
> >> >hostility between Armenians and Turks in Turkey.
>
> >> So nobody in Turkey speaks of the Armenian Genocide, therefore it did
> >> not happen? Here is an alternative explanation for you to ponder,
> >> Altan:
>
> >> Associated Press, 11 Oct 2007
>
> >> ISTANBUL, Turkey - The son of a journalist killed earlier this year
> >> after calling the massacre of Armenians genocide was convicted
> >> Thursday of insulting Turkey's identity for republi****ng his father's
> >> remarks.
>
> >> Arat Dink, editor of the Armenian newspaper Agos, and publisher
Serkis
> >> Seropyan each received a one-year suspended sentence for "insulting
> >> Turkishness," said their lawyer, Erdal Dogan. He said they would
> >> appeal the sentences.
>
> >> >I went to the public library in New York and looked at a few
magazines
> >> >published in the1920s. If I remember correctly, it was in New
Statesm=
an
> >> >that I read about a joint session of US Congress dealing with the
Arm=
enian
> >> >genocide allegation.
>
> >> If you wish to base your version of history on an article you think
> >> you read in a magazine published in the 1920's, be my guest. However
> >> the link below will provide the op****tunity to enhance your
historical
> >> knowledge very easily. The source is, of course, the U.S. Ambassador
> >> to Turkey at the time of the genocide.
>
> >>http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> >> I presume you will contend that Ambassador Morgenthau was just a
> >> willing tool of the "vast Armenian conspiracy" to discredit the
> >> Turkish government of 1916.
>
> >> Santayana wrote that "Those who refuse to learn from history are
> >> condemned to relive it."
>
> >> And those who deny the reality of history render
themselves>incapable<=
of learning from it, so their destiny to relive the worst
>
> >> episodes in their history becomes a self-inflicted wound. Does the
> >> Turkish word "kismet" have any relevance here?
>
> >> ---- =20
> >> Diogenes (cdho...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
)
>
> >> The wars are long, the peace is frail
> >> The madmen come again . . . .
>
> >So far, Armenians said Turks did this and that, and Turks said
> >Armenians did this and that, and both sides rejected the accusations.
> >No solution of the problem is reached in this way and cannot be
> >reached. But you are continuing to do the same thing and thinking that
> >I am doing the same thing too. You are not understanding what I mean.
> >The problem can be solved only if all parties involved open their
> >archives to investigation. But Armenians do not open their archives
> >and do not accept objective investigation. Even this undeniable and
> >non-denied fact can be seen as a proof of the fact that the Armenians
> >were the guilty party. But I still do not claim that I proved anything
> >by saying that. The solution can be reached only through the honest
> >examination of the do***ents in the archives.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but to what "Armenian archives" do you refer? You
> realize, of course, that at the time of the genocide the victims were,
> in fact, Turkish citizens (or Ottoman, if you prefer). There was no
> Armenian government to establish such "archives", since the surviving
> Armenians were lucky to escape with their lives and the clothes on
> their backs (and only ~ 40% were that fortunate).
>
> >Similarly, I do not claim that I proved anything by telling about the
> >discussion of the problem in the US Congress in 1920s, as you think I
> >do. I mentioned that event to mean that the Congressmen of that time
> >had a better chance of knowing the truth compared to the Congressmen
> >of today, because live re****ts from eyewitness, such as American
> >missionaries working in the area, were available in 1920s.
>
> Then a "live re****t from an eyewitness" who happened to be the U.S.
> Ambassador to Turkey at the time should be a central focus of the
> entire discussion. Much as I dislike repeating myself, Ambassador
> Morgenthau's observations of the Armenian Genocide are a matter of
> public record.
>
> http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/morgenthau/Morgen24.htm
>
> It is interesting that not one sup****ter of the Turkish government's
> version of history is willing to acknowledge the existence of Mr.
> Morgenthau's re****t, let alone discuss it. The reason becomes
> painfully obvious.to anyone who reads it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >I also mentioned an undeniable present-day proof of the fact that the
> >present-day Congressmen are likely to approach the problem with the
> >aim of securing undeserved political gains. A present-day Senator who
> >was sup****ting the Armenian thesis stopped doing that when the
> >President told him that he was harming US interests. He explained this
> >change in his attitude by saying that he was an American before being
> >a politician. This is an admission of the fact that he had sup****ted
> >the Armenians to secure political gains in complete disregard of the
> >interests of his country. A man like this cannot be assumed to have
> >behaved with the aim of helping the Armenians. He was using them to
> >secure political gains just as many Western diplomats used the
> >Armenians of the Ottoman Empire for their own benefit and thereby
> >caused much suffering to them and to Turks. In fact, many politicians
> >of many countries are still using the Armenians for personal profit.
> >They are trying to attract the votes of the children of the Armenians
> >they claim were killed by the Turks. This is absolutely ridiculous.
>
> Is it your contention that this entire initiative is just a political
> ploy to cater to the "Armenian lobby"? I was not aware that such a
> powerful voting block was making and breaking American politicians and
> dictating national policy. Apparently I haven't been paying attention.
>
> >In a general way, I tried, and I am still trying, to draw attention to
> >what is ignored by all parties. Turks are not guilty of having
> >committed genocide. There are still Armenians living in piece in
> >Turkey. I pass everyday by a large Armenian hospital on one of the
> >main streets of Istanbul, the Republic Street. There has never been
> >any sign of hostility against that institution or against Armenians
> >who use it or Armenians who did not commit crimes against Turks and
> >Turkey. Where is the genocide? An Armenian journalist, H rant Dink,
> >was killed recently by an underage fanatic, but huge Turkish crowds
> >protested it carrying banners reading "We all are H rant Dinks."
>
> And as I noted previously his son republished his remarks and was just
> convicted in court of "insulting Turkishness". Is this an example of
> openness and tolerance in Turkish society?
>
> >Where
> >is the genocide? In opposition to this, more than 60 innocent Turkish
> >diplomats have been murdered by Armenians all over the world long
> >after the events of Eastern Turkey. No Armenian protested. Was this
> >not the continuation of the true Armenian genocide?
>
> Murder, however criminally shameful, is murder. And genocide, however
> *nationally* shameful, is genocide. There is a difference, you know.
> Allow me to provide the definition:
>
> The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the
> Crime of Genocide describes genocide as "acts committed with intent to
> destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or
> religious group."
>
> >Turks are not guilty of having committed genocide, but they are guilty
> >of not admitting that Armenians committed that crime against the Turks
> >with the help of foreign powers, as I explained in a previous post.
>
> The *Armenians* committed genocide against the *Turks*!! Seriously,
> Altan, is this preposterous delusion actually common in Turkey? I
> sincerely hope not, because if so then there it raises serious doubts
> about the ability of an entire nation to deal with reality.
>
> >admitting that truth, the Turks can help Armenians to free themselves
> >from the obsessive compulsive behavior caused by an imagined event of
> >genocide, which keeps harming their interests. This is also the only
> >way the Turks can solve their Armenian problem. Armenians can free
> >themselves from their schizophrenic inclinations by not allowing
> >others to use them and by abstaining from using them. Succeeding in
> >using, controlling the environment is a good remedy against
> >schizophrenia, but the way Armenians use Western diplomats is
> >inseparable from being used by them. This aggravates their
> >schizophrenic disorder. I relate below an undeniable and non-denied
> >fact of recent past which exposes the truth which the Turks really
> >deny.
>
> Having no psychiatric credentials I will not pass judgement on an
> individual, let alone a large group of people (nor, for that matter,
> should you). However when an entire ethnic group is either murdered
> wholesale or driven into exile there is obviously a profound effect on
> the entire world-view of the survivors and their descendants.
>
> Before the Nazi Holocaust the Jewish people were scattered across the
> world with a common religious, but not political identity. But as a
> result of that genocide there now exists the state of Israel, a
> political and military world power whose slogan is "Never again".
> Although the Jews certainly are not about to thank him for it, this
> change in their world-view was due to the genocide perpetrated by one
> Adolph Hitler. Does the present Israeli determination to survive as a
> people fit into your definition of a "schizophrenic disorder"?
>
>
>
> >Armenians invited a Turkish mayor to Erivan, the capital of Armenia,
> >expecting to hear from him what they would like to hear, because they
> >knew him. They got what they wanted. The mayor talked about peace,
> >good neighbor relations, cooperation, etc., and said: "We don't want
> >to butcher you anymore." In reality, both- Hide quoted text -
>
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>
> read more =BB
Jews are not schizophrenic, because they have not been used. Those who
have been killed by Germans and other nations had no time to become
schizophrenic. But all Jews are paranoid in varying measures, because
paranoia is caused by social failure, and being insulted is a severe
social failure. Freud tells in his autobiography how his family
members were insulted because they were Jews. During a football match
in Germany between Israelis and Germans, the German spectators
produced a hissing sound to remind the Israelis of the gas chambers.
The Jews have been mistreated everywhere in the world before, during,
and after the Holocaust, except in Turkey. This made them paranoid.
The main symptom of paranoia is seeking social success. Thus, Jews
seek social success automatically, being driven with the force of the
unconscious. This is one of the causes of the successes of Jews. This
fact has been admitted by an eminent Jew, the right-hand man of Bill
Gates, who directs the business activities of Microsoft and said:
"Only the paranoid shall survive." This phrase appeared on the cover
of Time magazine.
Jews have been persecuted severely in many countries, or maybe in all
countries excepting Turkey, at sometime or other in history, Germany,
Britain, and Spain being a few examples. That did not happen in
Turkey. Turks protected the Jews like they protected all those who
needed protection. The day the ****ps of Columbus sailed westward
carrying many Jews, Turkish ****ps sailed eastward from Spain carrying
the rest of the Jews fleeing the sword of inquisition. All Jews who
went with Columbus have been massacred by Indians when he returned to
Spain to get supplies and more ****ps and men. Those who came to Turkey
survived, and their descendents are grateful to Turks. Jews even lobby
in US in favor of Turkey.
Armenians too have been very prosperous and happy among Turks until
foreign powers began to use them against Turks. The Ottoman Government
even gave to Armenians the status of "preferred nation." They
contributed very actively to Turkish culture and administration. There
were Armenian ministers in the Ottoman cabinet during the alleged
genocide.
After the Turks freed Cyprus from the occupation of Catholics, they
sent gold, materials, workers, and even drawings to Cyprus for the
repair of Orthodox churches ruined during Catholic occupation. When
Irish people were starving, only the Ottomans sent food to them.
Ottomans helped countries as far as Indonesia. Ottoman Sultans
believed that it was their God-given duty to take care of the peoples
of the counties they ruled. They reduced taxes everywhere they went,
and terminated taxing in the poor regions. They gave to all peoples
the freedoms of wor****pping and engaging in all civil activities when
peoples were killed in other countries because of their religion or
ethnic origin. Time magazine wrote that the Ottoman rule was a
benevolent one.
In the anti-Turkish messages sent to this group, arguments are not
based on facts but on opinions produced to secure undeserved gains.
And the facts are continually distorted. For example, it has been said
that I sup****t my views by what has been written in a magazine. In
reality, I referred to what happened in the US Congress as re****ted by
a most respectable political journal of the time and has not been
denied by anyone. But those who fabricate lies have to produce more of
them to sup****t their previous lies.
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