mtodorov_69@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> // First I have to present a disclaimer about my origin.
>
> // I am only 50% Croat (by my mother's side). I am listed
> // as Croat on census only to keep my job and status. Since
> // 2001 even that did not help. So I sort of repented from
> // this hypocrisy, which is not so new but goes back to
> // 1996 when I first listed myself as person of
> // "UNDETERMINED NATIONALITY" in my postgradute index
> // (I never finished those studies later to the time of
> // writing).
>
I don't understand this. Where are you now? In Croatia? If so - are you
telling us that modern Croatia is a real Nazi state that denies jobs to
its citizens who are not purebred Croats?!
If so - I am speechless. It's 100000 worse than I imagined.
Before we go on, please explain.
I assure you that this business with discrimination and with
"UNDETERMINED NATIONALITY" is totally unusual in modern Europe. If you
were living in Russia and were a Russian citizen, you would be called a
"Russian" and would never have any problems with discrimiation at jobs.
Even if your mother weren't Russian...
I can't tell you how sorry I feel for you.
>
> vkarlamov@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> > mtodorov_69@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> > > You seem to be forgetting Serbian enterprise that killed/murdered 1
in
> > > 10 Bosnians in Bosnia. That is quite impartial, isn't it?
>
> > First of all, saying that Serbs killed "1 in 10 Bosnians in Bosnia" is
> > a lie. Just as your earlie lie about 1 in 5 Chechens killed by
Russians
> > in the last war.
>
> The time to decrease number of victims was before the killing, now it's
> sort of futile, isn't it? (I trusted the independent re****ts.)
>
Why don't you present the numbers and the sources.
>
> > Second, we are not talking about Serbs, are we? Serbs and Bosnians are
> > quite scared and hateful peoples. Not as hateful as Croats and
> > Albanians, but still a very sad bunch of folks.
> >
> > Let's leave Serbs and Bosnians to be. You are a Croat, I am a
> > Russian-American. You posted accusations against Rusisans for their
> > mistreatment of Chechens. I am amazed that a representative of the
most
> > genocidal and hateful nation on Earth would have the gall to accuse
> > others. You know the expression that people, who live in galss houses,
> > shouldn't throw stones, haven't you?
>
> I said above that I am only of to 50% a Croat, but what you said above
> explains a lot of what happened to me.
>
I am not sure what you mean. I am a Russian and an American. In our
countries, if you are a citizen of Russia/USA then you are a
Russian/American. I bet even in Serbia half-Turkish/half-Serb citizens
of Serbia are considered as Serbs and certainly don't get discriminated
on their jobs.
>
> > > Truly, to reach any solution, we must get over "mine truth, your
truth"
> > > syndrome and see what really happened. Croats are not innocent
> > > infants, but you make Serbs like Arkan and Milosevic seem like a
> > > victim of genocide?
> >
> > Arkan and Milosevic weren't victims. They didn't even live in Krajina.
> > It was something like 400 000 innocent Croatians of Serb ethnicity,
> > living in Krajina in Croatia, who were your victims.
>
> I was in 1995 drafted to "Storm" operation and I see what you
> are talking about. I was sent home because of an incident of pulling
> weapon on my own soldier, but before that I saw that Croats are
> not angels. We trashed many houses completely just to stay
> overnight, true. I witnessed POWs molested. It was so simple to
> do whatever to powerless "Serbochetniks".
>
> Tudjman's people wanted to make sure reconcilliation is impossible.
> That's why all the houses were burned, but I would like you to
> trust me this happened AFTER I left Krajina. While we were
> advancing I witnessed only scarce villages crushed with
> artillery. Not what happened after.
>
> This is a black spot in my record, this Storm. But believe me
> I would rather hide and escape it if I had a place to go. My own
> father has dragged me to go there. It was more profitable to
> have a (even deceased) war hero in family than a coward.
> Or some peacemaker.
>
> I was lucky. I only ended up in a nuthouse few times a few
> weeks with a F20. There are people who lost legs, arms
> or life.
>
Wow...
>
> > > And they only wanted to erradicate Islamic threat
> > > from the soil of Europe. What an ignorant man I am ...
>
> > Well, I guess Croats and Arkan agree in their hatred for Bosnian
> > Muslims. You do know that Croats fought against Bosnian Muslims as
> > well?
>
> I know this for certain. Believe me. This has put me in the
> middle in 1990s.
>
> > But what does this have to do with Russia?
>
> Nothing. Except that Russian Duma sent envoy to Milosevic's
> funeral, and never to pay respect to Srebrenica.
>
> But I don't look at Russian nation through that, I admire
> Pushkin, Dostoyevski, Gagarin ...
>
Thank you.
>
> > > > > Though Chechnyans are Muslims, I will quote Christian Bible in
this
> > > > > moment:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Whoever shuts his ears from the cry of the oppressed,
> > > > > he will cry too and no one will listen."
> > >
> >
> > The Bible also said "Only he, who is himself without a sin, may cast a
> > first stone".
>
> I see you point. But I am not speaking in the name of Croatia, I am
> speaking as a free world's citizen, if that's not presumptious.
>
But according to your own evidence, you live in a truly genocidal, Nazi
country. Russia is nothing like that. if you are a Turk or a Chechen,
who wants to live in peace in Russia - you don't get discriminated at
jobs and certainly nobody will commit genocide against you.
>
> > > > You are from Croatia? Great! Then you must be an expert on
genocides.
> > > > Has your grandpa told you what was his personal favorite way to
> > > > exterminate Jews, Gypsies and Serbs in Nazi Croatia?
> > > >
> > > > Another question. After the genocides of 1940s and 1990s, there
are
> > > > virtually no Jews left alive in Croatia. Are all the Serbs gone as
well
> > > > or do you guys need another round of genocides before you can
declare
> > > > Croatia truly "serb-frei" (serb-free)?
> > > >
> > > > Also, I hear some top Croat leaders are finally standing trial at
the
> > > > Hague Tribunal for the Crimes Against Humanity for their role in
the
> > > > horrible Croat anti-Serb genocide in Krajina in mid-90s. What are
their
> > > > names and their alleged roles in this genocide? Any chance that
the
> > > > rest of Croat leaders will join them in the Hague soon?
> > >
> > > About my grandpa: he was killed about 1943. On the wrong side.
> > > I like to think he only wanted to defend his village from Serbian
> > > Chetniks and then joined the wrong opposite side: Croatian
> > > Ustashe.
> >
> > You mean, he was part of the Croat Nazi regime? Did he exterminate
only
> > Serbs, or was he one of those who exterminated Jews and Gypsies as
> > well? I don't want to pick on your grandpa. I just want to point out
> > to you the crimes of your own nation.
>
> Frankly, I don't know. I hear he never went far from his village, that
> was surrounded by Serbs that joined Chetniks instead Partisans.
> Probably there weren't too many Jews or Gypsies there. But I cannot
> be sure. There was always a wall of silence around him, whenever
> I asked.
>
> > > That was a troubled time and it wasn't hard to make
> > > wrong choice.
>
> > Aha. And the current times in Chechnya aren't troubled times?
>
> Sure they are. They bring up the best and the worst on the surface,
> whatever man has inside...
>
> > > But I am not happy about any crime committed against Serbs. It
> > > did not make them any better, and it did not make us any better
> > > for sure.
>
> > Good for you.
>
> It actually does not make me happier, since I am identified with
> the government that has subdued me and that discriminates me.
>
Let me repeat my amazement: you ar talking about modern Croatia that's
situated in Europe? I am lost for words.... Get out of there!
>
> I am not HDZ (nationalist) voter, on last elections I voted for
> SDP (social democrats, former communist party).
>
> > > I was raised in Tito's (not Milosevic's) Yugoslavia, and I was
taught
> > > unaligned movement policy, the im****tance of non-nuclear, not-rich
> > > third world, which under Tito has risen into formidable force.
>
> > Didn't Tito also teach you to love each other and live in one united
> > Yugoslavia? Why did you guys have to betray Tito's teachings and start
> > separatism, re-balkanizing the Balkans? You didn't like it that your
> > language was called "Serbo-Croatian" and not "Croatio-Serbian"? Why
> > couldn't Catholic Yugoslavs live in peace and friend****p with Greek
> > Orthodoxes the way do Ukrainians?
>
> True. But it never worked. Suppressing ethnicity did little good, and
> the
> good did not survive temptations. It created the space for all kind of
> Tudjmans and Milosevics climb up on cheap ethnic sentimentality
> and endangeredness.
>
But the only thing that Serbs wanted was to keep Tito's way and to keep
Yugoslavia united. Milosevic didn't shoot anybody for fun. He didn't
even discriminate against non-purebred Serbs the way modern Croatia
does. He only used force and brutality in order to keep Tito's
Yugoslavia united. Yes, he used brutal methods but at least his
motivations were good.
>
> But even former communists SDP have abandoned Tito's policy of
> unalignment, and want to join NATO. There is no space left in
> Croatia for independent thought, not in media and not in Croatia.
> Selected players are reading the scripts given from above.
> I guess projecting the evil in Croatia on Krajina Serbs and expelling
> them did not work all that successful in the long run, did it?
>
I am not sure what you mean. The Croat nazis and their German and
American sponsors succeeded: they drove Serbs out of Croatia. The same
was repeated in Kosovo.
>
> > > I think I should maintain or restore unaligned policy, because
> > > unalignment is in fact impartiality. Jesus is impartial and God
> > > is impartial, for one.
> >
> > Unaligned? Croatia is hardly neutral, isn't it?
>
> I am sick of being hostage of a denaturalized regime.
> I am determined in opposition. Or resignation.
>
Please explain.
>
> > > This means that I should be able to see both Russian story and
> > > Chechen story and see the truth in between.
>
> > Just leave Russia and Chechnya alone. Chechnya is becoming more
> > peaceful. The problem will hopefully disappear the way the problem in
> > Northern Ireland did.
>
> I certainly hope so. Then maybe some referendum would not choose
> the most radical Chechens, but those who could deal with authonomy
> /independence without revan****sm or extermism, respecting the
> rigths of their own minorities, even Russian one. In this way I
> wanted to imply that Chechens did not select what's best for them,
> and I don't blame them, because I have also selected wrong choices
> out of fear.
>
> We're only human after all.
>
Well, the situation in Chechnya is difficult.
>
> > > Chechens killed Russians, that's very bad.
> > >
> > > Russians killed 1 in 5 Chechens,
> >
> > That's a lie. And even if Russians did kill 1 in 5 Chechens in
> > Chechnya, there are still 4 in 5 Chechens living there right now. But
5
> > in 5 Serbs are gone from Krajina.
>
> > Why do you insist on reha****ng old Russian crimes but ask me to forget
> > about old Croat crimes?
>
> Good point.
>
> It's not that simple. Most Croats will rather live in denial and
> wor****ping
> of their own victim carisma, when even notorious slaughterers like
> Jure and Boban are praised as heros. I am sorry. They believe what
> they choose, I cannot coerce them into believing otherwise.
>
> Not being a psychiatrist, for sure I cannot.
>
You are a good man.
>
> > > that's something even the
> > > Bosnians did not face. And we all mourned for Srebrenica. I believe
> > > Chechens have the right to decide to be a nation of their own,
> > > according to the principle of self-determination of nations, and
that
> > > they have the right for freedom.
>
> > When you Croats return all Serbs to Krajina and let them decide to
make
> > Krajina a "nation of their own, according to the principle of
> > self-determination of nations, and that
> > they have the right for freedom" - then we'll talk.
> >
> > But until Croatia has not given Krajina back to Serb refugess, you
> > better mind your own business and instead of trying to marshal sup****t
> > for far-away Chechnya, try to marshal sup****t for the Serbs who were
> > ethnically cleansed out of your own Croatia.
>
> I will be honest: I was ambiguous on this. I wanted Serbian right for
> return,
> but I am just not sure if I would be doin them a favor. Some were
> killed
> after return. Others will not find job, or have Tudjman's Croats in
> their
> homes. Tudjman's Croats are a caste well above me, so I am basically
> powerless.
>
How can a modern European state be so deranged and Nazi-like?
>
> They certainly have the right for their property and their heritage
> in Croatia. But in order to help them, I would have to see some
> repentance
> for what was done by them and by Serbs in 1991-99.
>
> A clear distinction of theirs from that policy. I cannot defend
> Milosevic's
> policy, only right for return.
>
Of course.
>
> Do you see my point?
>
> > > They need a right leader or leaders instead of those who were
> > > assassined, of course.
> > >
> > > But this is all probably futile, since I am not sure they can read
> > > Internet and write to their own newsgroup.
> >
> > I assure you they can. They even have their own web sites. I know that
> > you Croats think that Chechens are ignorant, backward and retarded.
> > They aren't. I assure you that even without your trivial advice,
> > Chechen rebel leaders know how to organize their fight. Chechen
leaders
> > make up a huge part of the whole Al Qaeda leader****p. The best Al
Qaeda
> > generals are Chechens. The elite Al Qaeda guards are all Chechens. Al
> > Qaeda has organized (with the help of Georgians, Kurds and Americans)
> > highly sophisticated network for producing chemical weapons of mass
> > destruction (ricin) to poison and terorrize Russian civilians. You
> > Croats have nothing to teach Chechens and Al Qaeda as to how best
> > terrorize Russians.
>
> Messing with biochemical weapons proves they have a poor leader****p,
> and their leaders do not know how to organize a fight. First, trying
> to defend a city against Russian army that can mobilize army
> of few millions is futile Tito would never have done that. He would
> play partisan tactics. Hit and run.
>
> > > Russian politicians need a scape-goat to put all their sins on and
> > > cast it into wilderness to Azazel, and Chechens have readilly fallen
> > > into every trap that was on their way, leading to a totally
destroyed
> > > ethnical corpus. The best in Chechens was killed and it will not
> > > grow back for decades.
>
> > At least they can eventually grow back, unlike the Krajina Serbs.
>
> I hoep so. Krajina Serbs will probably eventually return. If
> SDP is elected, I suppose. I don't long for their land, I don't know
> how to live in those areas. If only they did not put Draza Mihailovich
> as saint few days ago in a church of theirs, right now I would not
> seem such a traitor defending their rights.
>
> There's someone living very good from this ethnic hatred, and
> profit is not abandoned that easily. Even the churches
> profit from ethnic melancholy, when they cannot assemble
> real believers together. Thiose ran away when the corrupted
> regimes were sup****ted in exchange of favors (more land
> to control).
>
> > > If you want to say that world full of genocides will justify you
> > > for one, you could as well be wrong. Once upon a time, big
> > > policy interests will be obsoleted, and the history will judge you.
>
> > Only after it judges you, Croats, along with your buddies Americans,
> > Albanains, and Turks.
>
> The bottom line is that we'll all be judged by history.
> And by God.
>
It's like saying that the meek and poor will inherit the Earth when the
rich and powerful are done with it.
>
> > > My ancestors (on the grandpa's line) the Turks have done
> > > wrong to Armenians, and to many other nations. It is time
> > > to admit that wrong and say it was wrong. We committed
> > > genocide. There have been better ways to deal with the
> > > problems.
>
> > Good for you. But you are not a Turkish citizen, so you have no power
> > to rectify the wrongs committed there. Why don't you delay worrying
> > about Chechens and first do something to return Serbs to Krajina? I
> > heard many of these people are still living in refugee camps and would
> > love ot return to Krajina and call it their home once again.
>
> No, I am not Turkish citizen, only a descendant. This gives the
> part of the blame, if not rights.
>
That's the nazi Croat ideology speaking in you. You are a Croat
citizen. You are not responsible for the acts of Turkish government
some 100 years ago. Relax.
You really should get out of Croatia and learn how civilized people
view ethnicity.
>
> > > I repeat, killing is the problem of this world, not the answer.
> > >
> > > Not much to add.
>
> > I agree. So do something about your own country's wrongs against
> > Krajina Serbs.
>
> ANd you do something for Chechens' rights, and I will call this
> a deal.
>
Well, I really don't know what else can be done.
But let's face the discrimiantion that you and other non-"purebred"
Croats face in your own country. Croatia wants into NATO and EU. You
should try to publicize the current discrimiation that you face to the
EU officials, so that they put pressure on the Croat officials to stop
discrimination.
Look, back in the 1970s, the Soviet government discriminated against
Jews in some professions. But with Gorbachev this discrimination went
away, and now even a thought of such discrimination would be
unimaginable.
In USA, until 1960s, Jews and Blacks were also discriminated in many
professions. But in the 1960s this disappeared.
So, things can change in Croatia too.
>
> Peace and good,
> Mirsad Todorovac
> Zagreb, Croatia
>
Same to you.
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