Re: What Atheists Can't Answer

"Bob the Window" <b@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:6vsni.28798$C96.23769@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> It was the religious Jews whose authority Jesus undermined....

> > All the Jews were religious Jews. The secular Jew didn't arise for
over
a
> > thousand years.

> I meant the religious authorities, of course.

It's a significant difference.

> Jesus preached to more
> than just the Jews. He made it clear that his new world order included
> non-Jews as equal members of society, (in religion, too), which incensed
> the Jewish authorities. The Romans would have agreed with him, but the
> church was able to convince them that he was a threat to the religious
> authorities that kept order for them. Without their cooperation, the
> province would have been ungovernable. It's notable that the writers of
> the Bible barely criticize the Romans, considering they were the ones
> who carried out the trial and execution.

That effectively means that Jesus didn't criticise the Romans. Given
Jesus'
teachings, it's unlikely that he would - he was interested in reforming
Judaism, which he regarded as corrupt.

> >> I would disagree that Jesus was not a social reformer. He promoted
the
> >> idea of conscience as a guiding force, which has had a much greater
> >> influence, in the end, than his apparent acceptance of legal
authority.

> His views were enormously influential, but they were religious views.

> They work just as well if used as a basis for a just society; Jesus'
> real message, in my view. Jesus' teachings are obviously not solely
> religious.

There are ****tions of the teachings which are clearly entirely religious.
There's no point in analysing the Our Father from a social reforming POV.

> Please feel free to regard Jesus as a religious figure, however. I
> believe there are some others who would agree with you.

I don't think there's any question as to the fact that Jesus was a
religious
figure. The question is whether a subset of the teachings form the basis
for
social reform unrelated to dogma. They probably do.

--

J/

SOTW: "Panic" - The Puppini Sisters

http://www.thepuppinisisters.com/
http://www.azcars.eu/wdfdi/