On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:16:00 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
<lojbab@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Padraic Brown <elemtilas@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:27:47 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
>><lojbab@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>Padraic Brown <elemtilas@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>That will depend on what you mean by it - the context is insufficient
>>>>>to identify the intended meaning.
>>>>
>>>>I take it you don't listen to AM radio. The context is the top of the
>>>>hour moment when the radio station jingle announces "WXYZ, 1551AM,
>>>>with your news, s****ts and weather at the top of the hour!"
>>>
>>>The statement is multiply ambiguous and false to boot (it's marketing,
>>>so we should expect this). There will in fact be no s****ts at the top
>>>of the hour. For one thing, hours are not physical objects and have
>>>no "tops".
>>
>>Rest snipped for brevity. If you choose not to answer the question,
>>kindly say so!
>
>I am saying that there are so many answers that no answer that I would
>give would necessarily be correct and unchallengeable.
Really, there's only _one_ answer that needs to be given. I've read
your replies, and I'm not arguing against your points. I just don't
always have a lot of patience for _intentional_ misunderstanding and
misconstrual of the situation. There is, in reality, absolutely
_nothing_ ambiguous, strange, unlikely, redundant or etr. about
"s****ts" in the contextual usage I suggested. The request was simple,
the answer obvious (at least to someone who is sufficiently familiar
with Lojban).
Your answer needn't be _perfect_ -- it just has to satisfy the
parameters. You were given a context in which the word "s****ts" is
used and were asked to give a Lojban translation. If Lojban is a human
language and is capable of use in normal contexts of daily life by
normal people in a normal industrialised, western country, it should
not pose any great difficulty.
Unless y'all simply haven't come up with a word for "s****ts" yet!
Always the bane of conlangers everywhere, to findthemselves wordshort!
>>I can only take this to mean that "s****ts" is something
>>that can't be discussed in Lojban
>
>Of course it can. "mela'o gy. s****ts gy." means exactly whatever the
>English word s****ts means, having borrowed it intact as non-Lojban
>text.
Fair enough as a first step. I would understand this to mean that
Lojban has no native concept of "s****t", then, that it is a borrowed
and (possibly not yet) naturalised topic (this could be traced to its
self avowed cultural neutrality, but I don't think "s****ts" is
anywhere near a culture-specific phenomenon). So we're back to square
one: I can only take that to mean that "s****ts" is something Lojban
can not handle in normal usage.
>But few Lojbanists would choose such a copout, and no
>broadcaster would.
Good.
I eagerly await how a Lojbanist broadcaster who chooses _not_ to use
the borrow-it-quick copout would render the above.
> and that Lojban is not a language
>>that could ever be used for daily life.
>
>It certainly could.
Yet you can't even describe something that is of fundamental daily
im****tance for a very large segment of the US population. Not to
mention of great im****tance in many other countries as well.
>But the concepts that would be used would probably
>not map exactly to English language concepts. So the broadcaster
>would say something else about what was to be broadcast, dividing the
>categories of the world differently. That is the way languages work.
A copout of another kind, really. Unless Lojban is a language designed
for a particular culture that does _not_ have "s****ts", the bit about
not mapping precisely is nonsense. I understand that Lojban is
designed to be culturally neutral -- but that doesn't mean that one
should never discuss cultural topics in the language. Given that its
primary design goal is to be used by people in communication with each
other, you can hardly ignore the fact that discussion of such an
im****tant cultural artifact is going to happen.
>lojbab
Padraic
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