Padraic Brown <elemtilas@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 12:37:09 -0400, Dana Nutter \ deinx nxtxr
><li_sasxsekREMOVETHIS@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>>li [Bob LeChevalier] mi tulis la ...
>>> >Rest snipped for brevity. If you choose not to answer the question,
>>> >kindly say so!
>>>
>>> I am saying that there are so many answers that no answer that I would
>>> give would necessarily be correct and unchallengeable.
>>
>>So give a few of the better answers. A language needs to be
>>able to express these things,
I opine that we have major philosophical differences about the nature
of language, and the purpose of our language efforts.
What things, precisely? That is what is at issue. The broadcaster
will know what he wants to express, and what the goal is for the
communication.
I am not such a broadcaster, and my considerations will be quite
different from those of a broadcaster. I've tried to note some that I
can think of, and I have framed my discussions for people who do NOT
know Lojban and in the context of a discussion of artificial languages
in general (those who know Lojban and interested in the specifics of
how Lojban deals with the matter would probably have been better
asking the question on a Lojban forum and not on this newsgroup).
And I would argue that a language does NOT necessarily have to be able
to express "those things". Indeed most languages in history have not,
precisely because there was no concept of a news broadcast, as well as
because the marketing slogan "news, s****ts, and weather" is inherently
cultural. If you formulate something in Latin that translates "news
weather and s****ts at the top of the hour", it is a safe bet that no
one in the Roman empire ever said such a thing, nor ever would have
said such a thing.
>> and do so without a speaker having
>>to stop and analyse or philosophize about the precise meaning of
>>something.
>
>Exactly. We do this all the time on the conlang lists. Little
>translation exercises where we have to devise new words (sometimes for
>concepts we know must exist in the language's culture; sometimes for
>entirely new cultural concepts) on the fly.
This is a Usenet newsgroup and not a "conlang list". The audience is
arguably quite different.
I rarely participate in those exercises even on the conlang lists
a) they lack context
b) I don't see a lot of value in translating something into a language
that the people reading it don't know, without explanation of all the
nuances, and such explanation is seldom appreciated.
Lojban is designed with the intent that individual speakers can coin
new words as they need them, for the concepts that THEY wish to
express. The phrase "exists in the language's culture" doesn't really
apply when only one speaker has used a word or phrase. In order for a
usage to become part of the culture, it would have to be used,
repeatedly, within that culture. Posting in this newsgroup does not
qualify.
But "s****ts" in this case is NOT a "new concept". It is a "borrowed"
concept with specific denotations and connotations based on the
culture that it is borrowed from. The appropriate usage therefore
would be a borrowing, unless one chooses to reformulate a new concept
in Lojban terms which might or might not match that of the source
concept.
I contend that translating "Deutsche Demokratische Republik" as
"German Democratic Republic" goes against what you claim to ask for.
Whatever the coiners of that name meant by "Demokratische" has little
to do with what English speakers mean by the word "Democratic". Their
concept has NOT been expressed in our language. A word for a
different concept has been appropriated to translate a concept that we
do not have a distinct word for.
If you think that being able to use the wrong word to mistranslate a
concept from another language is an essential feature of language, I
can certainly come up with a sentence that will meet your needs. "mi
klama le zarci" normally means "I am going to the store", but if we
want to have Humpty Dumpty the translator say that it means "news,
s****ts and weather at the top of the hour", Humpty Dumpty can say
that. But lojbab won't.
>If dozens of us whose
>languages are nowhere near the venerable age or state of development
>of Lojban can do it,
You can pretend to do it. But in fact only a couple of conlangs have
the wherewithal to actually *do* a news broadcast targeted for a real
audience.
Lojban happens to be one of them. But I am not one of the people who
would create such a broadcast. I wouldn't do one in English either.
>surely a competent Lojbanist should be able to do it too!
A competent Lojbanist can do all sorts of things.
I am a competent English speaker, but *I* would never actually express
"news, s****ts and weather at the top of the hour", nor anything
approximating that usage. I would say something like "The news
broadcast will start on the hour, and will include weather and
s****ts". If you want that expression translated approximately into
Lojban
..ai co'a benji co nuzba be loi vrici joi nunjvi joi tcima ca le co'a
bavlamcacra
[intention!] [observative] [initiation of event] transmitting of-type
news about subjects
various-mixed-with-events-of-competition-mixed-with-weather
simultaneous with the [initiation of event] future-adjacent-hour
I don't attach much significance to my being able to formulate such an
expression, but apparently you do. Whether this "answers the
question", I cannot judge.
lojbab
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