IBM vs MS...was: Re: DOLLAR COLLAPSE NOW IMMINENT

Have to edit the title, Bob, because Google has trouble with large
posts and threads with a lot of replies. tsk, tsk. 

See stuff below....

On Fri, 16 May 2008 12:57:14 -0700 (PDT), BobR 

<reed1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

>>
>> > Damn, we think too much alike.
>>
>> Hey, three cheers for us. :-) =A0 !!!!
>>
>> Gates was also the first name that
>>
>> > came to mind when I thought about the title robber-baron and God
knows
>> > that I dislike that SOB about as much as any human on earth.
>>
>> Well, we could throw in some venom for Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon,
>> Ghengis Khan, etc., etc., too.
>>
>> =A0On the
>>
>> > other hand, I can't totally agree that he was a robber-baron either.
>> > Gates was an op****tunist that essentially saw what the public wanted
>> > and gave it to them. =A0He is probably the worst example because his
>> > product was not something that was a life and death product. =A0We
>> > didn't have to buy his operating system or anything else from him, we
>> > chose to.
>>
>> Fine, I use MS SW most of the time (spent a lot of time with Linux,
>> some with BSD and OS/2 [=3Dbig IBM disaster, but MS was hired to do
some
>> and they deliberately sabotaged IBM, too]). But, MS did all kinds of
>> really dirty tricks to everyone. I can name many. Most of the old
>> timers know this.
>>
>
>Dirty tricks or recognition that if you gave them an inch they would
>take a mile? 

Both!

> IBM gave MS an inch and they took a mile but then they
>learn from the masters of the time which was IBM.  They out played IBM
>at their own game.  Which is what usually happend with every monopoly
>given enough time. 

Sooner or later, its all a part of "payback," eh? They all do it. 

I saw op-ed pieces in WSJ years ago by Scott McNeally, Bill G, and
Larry Ellison and you should have read them. They all said the same
thing: "We are nice guys, the other two guys are badguys." Made me
puke. 

>  MS is on top for the moment but they are well
>aware that the dogs are at their heals.

And, Google might eat their lunch with ASP, and some others are doing
this, too. 

>> And, I don't like monopolists and other "anti-competitive" business
>> practices that are in business history. Give me honest competition and
>> that's good capitalism. But the dirty tricks are out there and there
>> are very many books about it.
>>
>
>I agree totally.

Good. 

>> > I go back in the business far enough to have been deeply involved
with
>> > the IBM Monopoly of the 60's and 70's. =A0I thought the same of IBM
at
>> > the time but looking back the monopoly by IBM was only partly IBM's
>> > doing and much more a stupid follow the leader mentality that said if
>> > you picked anything but IBM, it was your job on the line.
>>
>> I have the notion that when guys get too big for their britches, then
>> they start confusing themselves with gods. Happened to Alexander the
>> Great. Human psychology phenonmenon.
>>
>> =A0Microsoft
>>
>And eventually they will be brought down if by nothing else that the
>weight of their own ego.

And, they have a megaton of that. 

Not that I like Steve Jobs that much and Apple has too much religious
following, but iMac sales are going up. Not that OS-X is much safer
(Google on "OS-X hacks" and get 30,000 hits).

>>
>> > became a monopoly on the same mentality.
>>

deleted some

>>
>> > I agree that all did some damage along the way but all also made
>> > contributions along the way that actually were a benefit to our life
>> > today.
>>
>> I fully agree. If you want a car, then there has to be a car factory
>> and that means big bucks and big staff and that does not come together
>> spontaneously or very quickly. They are finding that out in China
>> right now, too. They got over 100 car factory brands, just like in the
>> USA back 100 years ago. In the end, there will probably be three over
>> there, too, plus whatever foreign brands survive.
>>
>
>Ironic how this country actually has more auto manufacturers now than
>ever before. 

Well, the books say that around 1900-1910 or so we had many dozens of
car manufacturers. They all soon went out of business as consolidation
took place. gonna happen in China in the next 5-10 years, too.

> They have foreign names but many are built right here in
>the states.  The old standards are still built here but with foreign
>parts.

A big mess if you ask me. 

>> > Even Gates, who I despise, has led to many positives along
>> > with the negatives.
>>
>> Fine, I have a wee little bit less venom for him since he donated a
>> bunch of money to his foundation and at least he has not built big
>> obscene yachts like Larry Ellison has.
>>
>> =A0Without a company like Microsoft, would the
>>
>> > personal computer revolution have come as far as it has?
>>
>> Look at Linux. If it were given the same chance. Even better, look at

deleted

>> Well, I don't care if you steal pensils at work or make xeroxes of
>> dirty jokes, but if you lay off 20,000 guys who bring food home to
>> another 30,000 human beings and tell them "We can find cheap flesh
>> someplace so we at the top can get big bonuses and upvalued stock
>> optione" then I'm gonna have unkind thoughts for you.
>>
>> Ever read "Barbarians at the Gate" all about Ross Johnson and RJR
>> Nabisco? Biggest LBO of the last 20 years and did a tremendous amount
>> of damage for nothing.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
>I would love to agree with you without reservation but I can't
>totally.  Hell, I get pissed at it all but know that there is more to
>it than what we want to believe. 

Yeah, sure. We can bring more caveats into the discussion and then
maybe, yes, the situation gets more complicated. 

> I have seen a lot of noble companies
>fall by the wayside over the years because they refused to make the
>hard decisions necessary to survive.  It does little good to try and
>save the jobs of a few at the cost of everyone.  On the other hand, a
>poorly managed company will be a poorly managed company no matter
>where the employees are or how much you pay them.

Well, I'm going to "go nostalgic" on you. Some decades ago job
security in the USA was a lot better than today. And, same for Japan:
decades ago you worked for one of their big cor****ations, turned the
crank like you should, and you had a lifetime job. Same deal in
western Europe in the past: good job security. Both other places are
just like the USA, now. Job today, gone tommorrow. 

>