On May 9, 1:28=A0am, "captain." <spammersmust...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> <ostap_bender_1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>
>
news:524ab948-318a-4a85-b676-0c1b1561eedc@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On May 8, 12:27 am, "captain." <spammersmust...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > i remember once, when i made the comment that georgia and russia have
a
> > history of conflict, i was called a liar by a mister v. karlamov and
it
> > was
> > demanded that i provide all of the examples from history where this
> > happened.
>
> > hmmm... now where should i begin?
>
> There is no way to predict where *you* will begin, but I would begin
> at the beginning, with the Treaty of Georgievsk, in which Russia, per
> Georgia's request, =A0assumed the obligation of protecting the fellow
> orthodox Christians of Gerogia from the islamic powers that kept on
> destroying it:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
>
> Treaty of Georgievsk
>
> The Treaty of Georgievsk (Russian: ???????????? ???????, Georgian:
> ???????????? ????????) established the east Georgian kingdom of Kartli-
> Kakheti as a protectorate under suzerainty of the Russian Empire, and
> defined the mutual rights and obligations of the two countries toward
> each other in 1783.
>
> Terms
> Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty's terms, Russia's
> empress became the official and sole suzerain of Kartli-Kakheti's
> rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians' internal sovereignty and
> territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as Her
> enemies" [2]. Each of the Georgian kingdom's tsars would henceforth be
> obliged to swear allegiance to Russia's emperors, to sup****t Russia in
> war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
> without Russia's prior consent.
>
> Given Georgia's history of invasions from the south, an alliance with
> Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
> Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establi****ng a link to
> Western Europe.[3] In the past, Georgia's kings had not only accepted
> formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals. Thus
> it was neither a break with Georgian tradition nor a unique
> capitulation of independence for Kartli-Kakheti to trade vassalage for
> peace with a powerful neighbor. However, in the treaty's preamble and
> article VIII the bond of Orthodox Christianity between Georgians and
> Russians was acknowledged, and Georgia's primate, the Catholicos,
> became Russia's eighth, permanent archbishop and a member of Russia's
> Holy Synod.
>
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> After that, look at the list of Georgians who valiantly fought for
> their Russian fatherland in all Russia's wars, starting with
> Bagration:
>
> Pyotr Bagration
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>
> =A0Prince Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration (Russian: ???? ???????? ?????????,
> Georgian: ????? ??????????, Petre Bagrationi) (1765 - September 12,
> 1812) was an ethnic Georgian and descendant of the Georgian royal
> family of the Bagrations, and served as a Russian general. =A0His father
> was a Georgian prince, Colonel Ivane Bagrationi. His brother Roman
> (Revaz) Bagrationi was also a general of the Russian army. =A0Bagration
> entered the Russian army in 1782, and served for some years in the
> Caucasus. He participated in the Siege of Ochakov (1788), and in the
> Polish campaign of 1794. His merits were recognized by Suvorov, whom
> he accompanied in the Italian and Swiss campaign of 1799, winning
> particular distinction by the capture of the town of Brescia.
>
> In the wars of 1805 Bagration's achievements appeared even more
> brilliant. With a small rearguard he successfully resisted the
> repeated attacks of forces five times his own numbers at the Battle of
> Hollabrunn (1805), and though half his men fell, the retreat of the
> main army under Kutuzov was thereby secured. At Austerlitz (2 December
> 1805) Bagration fought against the left wing of the French army
> commanded by Murat and Lannes. He fought bravely and obstinately at
> the battles of Eylau (7 February 1807), Heilsberg (11 June 1807) and
> Friedland (14 June 1807).
>
> During the Finnish Campaign of 1808, by a daring march across the
> frozen Gulf of Finland, Bagration captured the =C5land Islands, and in
> 1809 he led the Russian army against the Turks at the battles of
> Rassowa and Tataritza. In 1809 he was promoted to Full General
> ("General ot Infanterii"). His actions during those years led Leo
> Tolstoy to give him a minor role in his novel War and Peace.
>
> In 1812 Bagration commanded the 2nd army of the West, and though
> defeated at Mogilev (23 July 1812), rejoined the main army under
> Barclay de Tolly, and led the left wing at the Battle of Borodino (7
> September 1812), where he received a mortal wound. He died on 12
> September, in the village of Simi, which belonged to his aunt.
>
> Tsar Nicholas I had a monument erected in his honour on the
> battlefield of Borodino. The general's remains were transferred to the
> place where he had fallen and remain there to this day.
>
> Joseph Stalin chose Bagration as the name of the Soviet Union's June
> 22, 1944, successful offensive that defeated the German Army Group
> Centre and drove the forces of Nazi Germany out of what is now
> Belarus. After the war, the Soviet Union annexed northern East
> Prussia, and the until-then German town of Preu=DFisch Eylau-scene of
> the 1807 battle-was renamed Bagrationovsk in his memory.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bagration.jpg
>
> Equestrian statue of Bagration in Moscow.
>
> - karla, you are capable of going from decrying georgia as basically
satan=
's
> spawn
>
When did I do that? When did I condemn anything Georgian, except its
insane governments of Gamsakhurdia, Shevardnadze and Ssakashvili?
Please give quotes or apologise for your libel.
I was very close to the leaders of the Georgian dissident movement, I
have always admired georgian culture, arts, food and talents and would
be happy to live in Georgia.
>
> to loudly proclaiming the everlasting, uninterrupted friend****p
> between georgia and russia. today's flavor is "good friends". and that
is
> constructive, considering that it is im****tant at the present to do
anythi=
ng
> possible to keep relations from getting worse.
>
But of course Georgians and Russians have been as good friends as
Danes and Norwegians and Swedes and Finns. It all changed when they
took opposite sides in the Abkhaz/Ossetian conflict. Now the Western
and Georgian propaganda are working on overdrive to brainwash the
public into thinking that the Russo-georgian animosity started not in
the 1990s but back in the 18th century.
The fact is that Georgia became part of Russia voluntarily.
By doing so, Georgians escaped being Holocausted by Turks the way
South Armenians were.
Georgia prospered under the Russian Imperial rule
Russia brought the knowledge of European culture to Georgia, which
played the positive role in the further development of Georgian
culture.
Georgians living in Russia and Russians living in Georgia felt
perfectly at home, usually went to the same churches, and were treated
with respect and love.
Etc.
Contrast that with the way the English vs. the Irish acted towards
each other, and Russians vs. Chechens/Cherkessians, not to mention
English/Americans vs. Native Americans/Blacks during the same period.
>
> i too want to do my part to help keep the peace between russia and
georgia=
> so i am not going to expose you to the raw face of history.
>
What is there to expose? Secret wars between the two? Secret
genocides? Even if there were any, you wouldn't know, because your
knowledge of the Caucusus history is null. You even have a problem
understanding what I have been saying about Georgians.
>
> instead, i am
> going to take a constructive attitude and do my my best not to aggravate
t=
he
> situation further. that includes my dealings with russian expats like
you,=
> medvezhnok, etc...
>
> in regards to peace, i am getting the impression that georgia feels
> abandoned by its western allies right now; first with nato, now with the
> general indifference their situation is illiciting from outsiders. this
ca=
n
> actually help the chances of keeping the peace in the area because
without=
> anyone to back them up, they *might* not be as aggressive with demands.
>
> what does the freshly inaugurated president of russia have to say about
> affairs? the topic of kosovo is likely to be mentioned at some point.
>
Russia is torn between sup****ting its traditional friends and
coreligionists Georgians vs. sup****ting Abkhazians, who have shown an
incredible (for Caucusus Muslims) friend****p towards Russia. Recall
that in the early 1990s, Georgia under the rule of the insane
Gamsakhurdia adopted the Nazi slogan "Georgia only for Georgians",
and Abkhazians and Ossetians had to rebel to save their lives and
culture.
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