On May 12, 2:41=C2=A0am, vello <vellok...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On May 12, 5:00=C2=A0am, Mikhail Medved <mikhail_b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 9, 2:55 am, vello <vellok...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On May 9, 9:10 am, ostap_bender_1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> > > > On May 8, 12:27 am, "captain." <spammersmust...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > > i remember once, when i made the comment that georgia and russia
h=
ave a
> > > > > history of conflict, i was called a liar by a mister v. karlamov
a=
nd it was
> > > > > demanded that i provide all of the examples from history where
thi=
s
> > > > > happened.
>
> > > > > hmmm... now where should i begin?
>
> > > > There is no way to predict where *you* will begin, but I would
begin=
> > > > at the beginning, with the Treaty of Georgievsk, in which Russia,
pe=
r
> > > > Georgia's request, =C2=A0assumed the obligation of protecting the
fe=
llow
> > > > orthodox Christians of Gerogia from the islamic powers that kept
on
> > > > destroying it:
>
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
>
> > > > Treaty of Georgievsk
>
> > > > The Treaty of Georgievsk (Russian:
=D0=93=D0=B5=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=
=B8=D0=B5=D0=B2=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9
=D1=82=D1=80=D0=B0=D0=BA=D1=82=D0=B0=
=D1=82, Georgian:
> > > >
=E1=83=92=E1=83=94=E1=83=9D=E1=83=A0=E1=83=92=E1=83=98=E1=83=94=E1=
=83=95=E1=83=A1=E1=83=99=E1=83=98=E1=83=A1
=E1=83=A2=E1=83=A0=E1=83=90=E1=83=
=A5=E1=83=A2=E1=83=90=E1=83=A2=E1=83=98) established the east Georgian
kingd=
om of Kartli-
> > > > Kakheti as a protectorate under suzerainty of the Russian Empire,
an=
d
> > > > defined the mutual rights and obligations of the two countries
towar=
d
> > > > each other in 1783.
>
> > > > Terms
> > > > Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty=E2=80=99s
terms, =
Russia=E2=80=99s
> > > > empress became the official and sole suzerain of
Kartli-Kakheti=E2=
=80=99s
> > > > rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians=E2=80=99 internal sovereignty
and=
> > > > territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as
Her=
> > > > enemies" [2]. Each of the Georgian kingdom=E2=80=99s tsars would
hen=
ceforth be
> > > > obliged to swear allegiance to Russia=E2=80=99s emperors, to
sup****t=
Russia in
> > > > war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
> > > > without Russia=E2=80=99s prior consent.
>
> > > > Given Georgia=E2=80=99s history of invasions from the south, an
alli=
ance with
> > > > Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or resist
> > > > Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establi****ng a link to
> > > > Western Europe.[3] In the past, Georgia=E2=80=99s kings had not
only=
accepted
> > > > formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> > > > occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals.
Thu=
s
> > > > it was neither a break with Georgian tradition nor a unique
> > > > capitulation of independence for Kartli-Kakheti to trade vassalage
f=
or
> > > > peace with a powerful neighbor. However, in the treaty=E2=80=99s
pre=
amble and
> > > > article VIII the bond of Orthodox Christianity between Georgians
and=
> > > > Russians was acknowledged, and Georgia=E2=80=99s primate, the
Cathol=
icos,
> > > > became Russia=E2=80=99s eighth, permanent archbishop and a member
of=
Russia=E2=80=99s
> > > > Holy Synod.
>
> > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> > > > After that, look at the list of Georgians who valiantly fought for
> > > > their Russian fatherland in all Russia's wars, starting with
> > > > Bagration:
>
> > > > Pyotr Bagration
> > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>
> > > > =C2=A0Prince Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration (Russian:
=D0=9F=D1=91=D1=82=
=D1=80 =D0=98=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B8=D1=87
=D0=91=D0=B0=D0=B3=
=D1=80=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BE=D0=BD,
> > > > Georgian: =E1=83=9E=E1=83=94=E1=83=A2=E1=83=A0=E1=83=94
=E1=83=91=E1=
=83=90=E1=83=92=E1=83=A0=E1=83=90=E1=83=A2=E1=83=98=E1=83=9D=E1=83=9C=E1=83=
=98, Petre Bagrationi) (1765 - September 12,
> > > > 1812) was an ethnic Georgian and descendant of the Georgian royal
> > > > family of the Bagrations, and served as a Russian general.
=C2=A0His=
father
> > > > was a Georgian prince, Colonel Ivane Bagrationi. His brother Roman
> > > > (Revaz) Bagrationi was also a general of the Russian army.
=C2=A0Bag=
ration
> > > > entered the Russian army in 1782, and served for some years in the
> > > > Caucasus. He participated in the Siege of Ochakov (1788), and in
the=
> > > > Polish campaign of 1794. His merits were recognized by Suvorov,
whom=
> > > > he accompanied in the Italian and Swiss campaign of 1799, winning
> > > > particular distinction by the capture of the town of Brescia.
>
> > > > In the wars of 1805 Bagration's achievements appeared even more
> > > > brilliant. With a small rearguard he successfully resisted the
> > > > repeated attacks of forces five times his own numbers at the
Battle =
of
> > > > Hollabrunn (1805), and though half his men fell, the retreat of
the
> > > > main army under Kutuzov was thereby secured. At Austerlitz (2
Decemb=
er
> > > > 1805) Bagration fought against the left wing of the French army
> > > > commanded by Murat and Lannes. He fought bravely and obstinately
at
> > > > the battles of Eylau (7 February 1807), Heilsberg (11 June 1807)
and=
> > > > Friedland (14 June 1807).
>
> > > > During the Finnish Campaign of 1808, by a daring march across the
> > > > frozen Gulf of Finland, Bagration captured the =C3=85land Islands,
a=
nd in
> > > > 1809 he led the Russian army against the Turks at the battles of
> > > > Rassowa and Tataritza. In 1809 he was promoted to Full General
> > > > ("General ot Infanterii"). His actions during those years led Leo
> > > > Tolstoy to give him a minor role in his novel War and Peace.
>
> > > > In 1812 Bagration commanded the 2nd army of the West, and though
> > > > defeated at Mogilev (23 July 1812), rejoined the main army under
> > > > Barclay de Tolly, and led the left wing at the Battle of Borodino
(7=
> > > > September 1812), where he received a mortal wound. He died on 12
> > > > September, in the village of Simi, which belonged to his aunt.
>
> > > > Tsar Nicholas I had a monument erected in his honour on the
> > > > battlefield of Borodino. The general's remains were transferred to
t=
he
> > > > place where he had fallen and remain there to this day.
>
> > > > Joseph Stalin chose Bagration as the name of the Soviet Union's
June=
> > > > 22, 1944, successful offensive that defeated the German Army Group
> > > > Centre and drove the forces of Nazi Germany out of what is now
> > > > Belarus. After the war, the Soviet Union annexed northern East
> > > > Prussia, and the until-then German town of Preu=C3=9Fisch
Eylau=E2=
=80=94scene of
> > > > the 1807 battle=E2=80=94was renamed Bagrationovsk in his memory.
>
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bagration.jpg
>
> > > As usually, you copy-pasted just parts interesting from your
> > > wiewpoint. May I add facts you "forgot" to put in your post.
> > > In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
> > > signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
> > > received protection by Russia. This, however, did not prevent
Tbilisi
> > > from being sacked by the Persians in 1795.
>
> > > On December 22, 1800, Tsar Paul I of Russia, at the alleged request
of=
> > > the Georgian King George XII, signed the proclamation on the
> > > incor****ation of Georgia (Kartli-Kakheti) within the Russian Empire,
> > > which was finalized by a decree on January 8, 1801,[20][21] and
> > > confirmed by Tsar Alexander I on September 12, 1801.[22][23] The
> > > Georgian envoy in Saint Petersburg reacted with a note of protest
that=
> > > was presented to the Russian vice-chancellor Prince Kurakin.[24] In
> > > May 1801, Russian General Carl Heinrich Knorring dethroned the
> > > Georgian heir to the throne David Batonishvili and instituted a
> > > government headed by General Ivan Petrovich Lasarev.[25]
>
> > > The Georgian nobility did not accept the decree until April 1802
when
> > > General Knorring compassed the nobility in Tbilisi's Sioni Cathedral
> > > and forced them to take an oath on the Imperial Crown of Russia.
Those=
> > > who disagreed were arrested tem****arily.[26]
>
> > > (wikipedia: Georgia)
>
> > I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source in discussing history, especially
> > its controversial topics. Anybody can write anything there, so
> > controversial topics are described from the point of view of those,
> > who have more time on their hands.-
>
> You are right for sure, but in particular case I was pointing to
> "selective" use of the very same wiki source. Basically I think no
> nation in human history had given up their independence deliberately.
It happens all the time. EU is the clearest example. Various treaties
putting one country's forces under the "joint" command, dominated by
the biggest signatory, and giving that signatory a right to deploy
troops, is another example.
> Forced selection between two possible occupants is hardly an act of
> free will, so even if there is mistake in Wiki source (what I don't
> think, all this happens in time history was history mostly, not
> battleground of ideological false images), it changes not too much.
>
You take things out of context and dwell on the word "occupants".
Inpependent Georgia wasn't possible at that time, and, the way I see
the events, Russia did nothing wrong by taking Georgia under its
protection. It's a distortion to call this "occupation" 300 years
later.
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