On May 12, 7:17=C2=A0pm, Mikhail Medved <mikhail_b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On May 12, 2:41=C2=A0am, vello <vellok...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 12, 5:00=C2=A0am, Mikhail Medved <mikhail_b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > On May 9, 2:55 am, vello <vellok...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > On May 9, 9:10 am, ostap_bender_1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 8, 12:27 am, "captain." <spammersmust...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > > > i remember once, when i made the comment that georgia and
russia=
have a
> > > > > > history of conflict, i was called a liar by a mister v.
karlamov=
and it was
> > > > > > demanded that i provide all of the examples from history where
t=
his
> > > > > > happened.
>
> > > > > > hmmm... now where should i begin?
>
> > > > > There is no way to predict where *you* will begin, but I would
beg=
in
> > > > > at the beginning, with the Treaty of Georgievsk, in which
Russia, =
per
> > > > > Georgia's request, =C2=A0assumed the obligation of protecting
the =
fellow
> > > > > orthodox Christians of Gerogia from the islamic powers that kept
o=
n
> > > > > destroying it:
>
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Georgievsk
>
> > > > > Treaty of Georgievsk
>
> > > > > The Treaty of Georgievsk (Russian:
=D0=93=D0=B5=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B3=
=D0=B8=D0=B5=D0=B2=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9
=D1=82=D1=80=D0=B0=D0=BA=D1=82=D0=
=B0=D1=82, Georgian:
> > > > >
=E1=83=92=E1=83=94=E1=83=9D=E1=83=A0=E1=83=92=E1=83=98=E1=83=94=E1=
=83=95=E1=83=A1=E1=83=99=E1=83=98=E1=83=A1
=E1=83=A2=E1=83=A0=E1=83=90=E1=83=
=A5=E1=83=A2=E1=83=90=E1=83=A2=E1=83=98) established the east Georgian
kingd=
om of Kartli-
> > > > > Kakheti as a protectorate under suzerainty of the Russian
Empire, =
and
> > > > > defined the mutual rights and obligations of the two countries
tow=
ard
> > > > > each other in 1783.
>
> > > > > Terms
> > > > > Under articles I, II, IV, VI and VII of the treaty=E2=80=99s
terms=
, Russia=E2=80=99s
> > > > > empress became the official and sole suzerain of
Kartli-Kakheti=E2=
=80=99s
> > > > > rulers, guaranteeing the Georgians=E2=80=99 internal sovereignty
a=
nd
> > > > > territorial integrity, and promising to "regard their enemies as
H=
er
> > > > > enemies" [2]. Each of the Georgian kingdom=E2=80=99s tsars would
h=
enceforth be
> > > > > obliged to swear allegiance to Russia=E2=80=99s emperors, to
suppo=
rt Russia in
> > > > > war, and to have no diplomatic communications with other nations
> > > > > without Russia=E2=80=99s prior consent.
>
> > > > > Given Georgia=E2=80=99s history of invasions from the south, an
al=
liance with
> > > > > Russia may have been seen as the only way to discourage or
resist
> > > > > Persian and Ottoman aggression, while also establi****ng a link
to
> > > > > Western Europe.[3] In the past, Georgia=E2=80=99s kings had not
on=
ly accepted
> > > > > formal domination by Turkish and Persian emperors, but had
> > > > > occasionally converted to Islam and sojourned at their capitals.
T=
hus
> > > > > it was neither a break with Georgian tradition nor a unique
> > > > > capitulation of independence for Kartli-Kakheti to trade
vassalage=
for
> > > > > peace with a powerful neighbor. However, in the treaty=E2=80=99s
p=
reamble and
> > > > > article VIII the bond of Orthodox Christianity between Georgians
a=
nd
> > > > > Russians was acknowledged, and Georgia=E2=80=99s primate, the
Cath=
olicos,
> > > > > became Russia=E2=80=99s eighth, permanent archbishop and a
member =
of Russia=E2=80=99s
> > > > > Holy Synod.
>
> > > > > //////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> > > > > After that, look at the list of Georgians who valiantly fought
for=
> > > > > their Russian fatherland in all Russia's wars, starting with
> > > > > Bagration:
>
> > > > > Pyotr Bagration
> > > > > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
>
> > > > > =C2=A0Prince Pyotr Ivanovich Bagration (Russian:
=D0=9F=D1=91=D1=
=82=D1=80 =D0=98=D0=B2=D0=B0=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B8=D1=87
=D0=91=D0=B0=D0=
=B3=D1=80=D0=B0=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BE=D0=BD,
> > > > > Georgian: =E1=83=9E=E1=83=94=E1=83=A2=E1=83=A0=E1=83=94
=E1=83=91=
=E1=83=90=E1=83=92=E1=83=A0=E1=83=90=E1=83=A2=E1=83=98=E1=83=9D=E1=83=9C=E1=
=83=98, Petre Bagrationi) (1765 - September 12,
> > > > > 1812) was an ethnic Georgian and descendant of the Georgian
royal
> > > > > family of the Bagrations, and served as a Russian general.
=C2=A0H=
is father
> > > > > was a Georgian prince, Colonel Ivane Bagrationi. His brother
Roman=
> > > > > (Revaz) Bagrationi was also a general of the Russian army.
=C2=A0B=
agration
> > > > > entered the Russian army in 1782, and served for some years in
the=
> > > > > Caucasus. He participated in the Siege of Ochakov (1788), and in
t=
he
> > > > > Polish campaign of 1794. His merits were recognized by Suvorov,
wh=
om
> > > > > he accompanied in the Italian and Swiss campaign of 1799,
winning
> > > > > particular distinction by the capture of the town of Brescia.
>
> > > > > In the wars of 1805 Bagration's achievements appeared even more
> > > > > brilliant. With a small rearguard he successfully resisted the
> > > > > repeated attacks of forces five times his own numbers at the
Battl=
e of
> > > > > Hollabrunn (1805), and though half his men fell, the retreat of
th=
e
> > > > > main army under Kutuzov was thereby secured. At Austerlitz (2
Dece=
mber
> > > > > 1805) Bagration fought against the left wing of the French army
> > > > > commanded by Murat and Lannes. He fought bravely and obstinately
a=
t
> > > > > the battles of Eylau (7 February 1807), Heilsberg (11 June 1807)
a=
nd
> > > > > Friedland (14 June 1807).
>
> > > > > During the Finnish Campaign of 1808, by a daring march across
the
> > > > > frozen Gulf of Finland, Bagration captured the =C3=85land
Islands,=
and in
> > > > > 1809 he led the Russian army against the Turks at the battles of
> > > > > Rassowa and Tataritza. In 1809 he was promoted to Full General
> > > > > ("General ot Infanterii"). His actions during those years led
Leo
> > > > > Tolstoy to give him a minor role in his novel War and Peace.
>
> > > > > In 1812 Bagration commanded the 2nd army of the West, and though
> > > > > defeated at Mogilev (23 July 1812), rejoined the main army under
> > > > > Barclay de Tolly, and led the left wing at the Battle of
Borodino =
(7
> > > > > September 1812), where he received a mortal wound. He died on 12
> > > > > September, in the village of Simi, which belonged to his aunt.
>
> > > > > Tsar Nicholas I had a monument erected in his honour on the
> > > > > battlefield of Borodino. The general's remains were transferred
to=
the
> > > > > place where he had fallen and remain there to this day.
>
> > > > > Joseph Stalin chose Bagration as the name of the Soviet Union's
Ju=
ne
> > > > > 22, 1944, successful offensive that defeated the German Army
Group=
> > > > > Centre and drove the forces of Nazi Germany out of what is now
> > > > > Belarus. After the war, the Soviet Union annexed northern East
> > > > > Prussia, and the until-then German town of Preu=C3=9Fisch
Eylau=E2=
=80=94scene of
> > > > > the 1807 battle=E2=80=94was renamed Bagrationovsk in his memory.
>
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bagration.jpg
>
> > > > As usually, you copy-pasted just parts interesting from your
> > > > wiewpoint. May I add facts you "forgot" to put in your post.
> > > > In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti
> > > > signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartli-Kakheti
> > > > received protection by Russia. This, however, did not prevent
Tbilis=
i
> > > > from being sacked by the Persians in 1795.
>
> > > > On December 22, 1800, Tsar Paul I of Russia, at the alleged
request =
of
> > > > the Georgian King George XII, signed the proclamation on the
> > > > incor****ation of Georgia (Kartli-Kakheti) within the Russian
Empire,=
> > > > which was finalized by a decree on January 8, 1801,[20][21] and
> > > > confirmed by Tsar Alexander I on September 12, 1801.[22][23] The
> > > > Georgian envoy in Saint Petersburg reacted with a note of protest
th=
at
> > > > was presented to the Russian vice-chancellor Prince Kurakin.[24]
In
> > > > May 1801, Russian General Carl Heinrich Knorring dethroned the
> > > > Georgian heir to the throne David Batonishvili and instituted a
> > > > government headed by General Ivan Petrovich Lasarev.[25]
>
> > > > The Georgian nobility did not accept the decree until April 1802
whe=
n
> > > > General Knorring compassed the nobility in Tbilisi's Sioni
Cathedral=
> > > > and forced them to take an oath on the Imperial Crown of Russia.
Tho=
se
> > > > who disagreed were arrested tem****arily.[26]
>
> > > > (wikipedia: Georgia)
>
> > > I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source in discussing history,
especially=
> > > its controversial topics. Anybody can write anything there, so
> > > controversial topics are described from the point of view of those,
> > > who have more time on their hands.-
>
> > You are right for sure, but in particular case I was pointing to
> > "selective" use of the very same wiki source. Basically I think no
> > nation in human history had given up their independence deliberately.
>
> It happens all the time. EU is the clearest example. Various treaties
> putting one country's forces under the "joint" command, dominated by
> the biggest signatory, and giving that signatory a right to deploy
> troops, is another example.
Wrong. joining golf club don't means you give up your freedom, despite
you had to follow the club rules: you are free to leave the club if
you feel it fits you better. About joint commands - it's the same: any
country participating in joint forces will send their troops on basis
what they see as political profit for nation.
I talk about different cases, about cases if nation will lost ability
to act as nation any more but become a part of some imperial body.
>
> > Forced selection between two possible occupants is hardly an act of
> > free will, so even if there is mistake in Wiki source (what I don't
> > think, all this happens in time history was history mostly, not
> > battleground of ideological false images), it changes not too much.
>
> You take things out of context and dwell on the word "occupants".
> Inpependent Georgia wasn't possible at that time, and, the way I see
> the events, Russia did nothing wrong by taking Georgia under its
> protection. It's a distortion to call this "occupation" 300 years
> later.- Hide quoted text -
>
Russia did nothing wrong taking Georgia under protection - sure.
Occupation starts from point russia decides that georgia must be not a
protege but part of Empire. If to belive wiki, it happens against
Georgian will.
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