On May 12, 9:54=A0pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> vello wrote:
> > On May 11, 6:51 pm, Vladimir Makarenko <vmak...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> >> vello wrote:
>
> >>> Hardly. if you read scb you know I'm for independence of ANY nation.
> >>> My problem in particular region is, can 17% of population make
ethnic =
cleansing on others
> >>> with help of third party and still talk about souvereignity.
> >> Georgians didn't make majority also: lets make it simple -
Gamsakhurdia=
> >> screwed up to such degree that initially neutral local Russians and
> >> Armenians during conflict sided up with aborigines. This cannot be
> >> fixed. People of Abkhazia found out they can perfectly live without
> >> Georgia and they are not coming back. Ever.
> > It may well be as you say. But it may be also this way that some third
> > country (Turkey ? :-))
>
> That's how a joke turns to reality - most of the ethnic Abkhaz live in
> Turkey and they did provide a lot of help. More than in Abkhazia itself.
> I know only of two other countries with the same demographic singularity
> - Armenia and Israel.
>
> =A0 pushes minority into action against maiority
>
> > promising (and giving) essential military help to rebels - or you
> > think 80 000 abkhazians defeated Georgia by themselves?
>
> During the war there were several ethnic paramilitary groups - Russians
> (Cosac battalion), Armenian, and - a battalion of "people of Caucasus"
> commanded by Shamil Basaev. This one was politely asked to leave when
> the Abkhaz figured out what he had on his mind.
> Nothing comes out of blue - if all the people of Abkhazia united in
> fighting Georgia maybe there was a good reason?
They DO NOT united - but fleeing or being expelled - why you don't
look numbers in the very same thread?
> Even "neutral" Russian troops were giving a hand. And in the times they
> would not move a finger without being paid or really angry. The Abkhaz
> didn't have any money.
But forces maybe interested in controlling/puni****ng Georgia for sure
had. But you may be true, I start to remember that back in 1992
Russia was surely not too imperialist. Still hard to imagine that all
those "Cossac batallions" and "people of Caucasus" appeared from
Russia without OK from the same Russia - or by you they made it over
Russian border killing down Russian border guard units?
> Btw, the Abkhaz always mention Estonians as their natural fellow
> citizens. How in the world Estonians made it to Abkhazia?
In some point of 18th or 19th century Russian Czar send out a message
that colonists would get land for free in Abkhazia (sorry, no time to
look for sources, but after some conflict Abkhazias population was
very low back then. It was hard to buy land in Estonia - big part of
it belongs to (mostly german) landlords and prices were high. So
thousand or two adventureous Estonian families decided to look for
bettter life in place where land is free and climate beautiful.
>
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> > In 1989 there was 525 000 people in Abkhazia, 240 000 georgians, 93
> > 000 abkhazians, 76 500 armenians and 75 000 russians. In 2003 there is
> > 216 000 people in total, 46 000 georgians, 94 500 abkhazians, 44 800
> > armenians and 23 400 russians. As you see, 3/4 of russians and almost
> > half of armenians are also gone. Hardly they leave to sup****t your
> > wiew that " initially neutral local Russians and Armenians during
> > conflict sided up with aborigines" - they fled "anonymous abkhaz-
> > friendly army" almost as fast as georgians.
>
> > So, living in exact moment we can say more then 50% from Abkhaz
> > population is expelled (80% from georgians, 66% from russians) so no
> > one can say there is something to do with "the will of Abkhazian
> > people" - maiority of them are outside Abkhazia for now.
> > More bright aspect is that historical owners of that piece of land,
> > abkhazians, are again owners (and clear maiority) on their homeland. A
> > good parallel would be creation of Israel giving them back homeland
> > lost 2000 years ago.
>
> Gamsakhurdia butchered Georgia as a civil society. And consequences are
> irreparable. Osetia and Abkhazia are gone.
> If EU had brains it would offer these two a member****p option. And these
> are not Kosovo - they have very high social and work ethics. If EU wants
> hard working cheap labor with tolerant social attitude it is them. I an
> sure Russia would be satisfied with such outcome.
>
> VM.
>
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> >> Those who do not want the place to go to hell stick to the things as
> >> they are right now - as a saying go - the bad peace is better than a
> >> good war.
> >> Except I suspect that if Georgia would have succeeded in its Nato
drive=
> >> Russia would have provoked a fire just to give Nato an idea what
buffer=
> >> zone life may be. I doubt very much Euros would like to dodge bullets
> >> there and the US has much bigger headaches to take care of.
>
> >> VM- Hide quoted text -
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> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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