On Mar 26, 9:21 am, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." <n...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> Your post changes nothing in the FAQ (assuming that is your intention).
> You give no numbers. You give no references. (if anything, you
> strengthen the FAQ...e.g."3000 may have died"...but *certainly* not
50,000=
..)
>
> However you do demonstrate the accuracy of the FAQ, in that Ho Chi Minh
> did not order, approve, or have prior knowledge of any executions, but
> instead worked to *prevent* wrongful killings. This is even better
> demonstrated in the 2 biographies of Ho Chi Minh (Halberstam and
Duiker).
>
> It's funny that you claim Karnow had inaccurate knowledge, then
> proceed with a lengthy quote from him, without any quotes from your
> bogus discredited "insiders". Ha!
>
> Son, you can get any number of "experts" in Westminster, California (the
> angry losers of "South" Vietnam) to say anything by *paying* them to
> write an article about their secret personal knowledge...and your side
> does just that...we are not fooled.
>
Bui Tin, Nguyen Minh Can were high eanking communist officials from
North Vietnam during the war. And Vien Kinh Te Vietnam is an agency of
the government of Communist Vietnam. They are not South Vietnamese.
They are the insiders.
> Ben5511 wrote:
> > On Mar 24, 8:36 am, "Dr. James West, Ph.D." <n...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> >>Soda Chanh wrote:
>
> >>>...Land Reform...
>
> >>btw, this is another of your hyped delusions:
>
> >>1. Over the 3 years of the Land Reform 3000 may have been killed, See
FA=
Q below.
> >> (certainly not the wild 50,000 to 100,000 that you irrational
anti-co=
mmunists hype)
> >>2. According to Stanley Karnow (in Vietnam A History), about the same
le=
vel
> >>of killing was being conducted by your side, "South" Vietnam, against
> >>peaceful civilian citizens in the south, as Diem tried to kill
*politica=
l* opposition.
> >>3. The DRV claimed a legitimate war-time reason to execute traitors
who =
were
> >>sup****ting the French military. i.e. landlords were not all peaceful
no=
n-participants.
> >>4. Land reform was a good thing...for *all* of Vietnam.
> >>5. War or not, those landlords were bad people...the scorn from the
poor=
> >>peasants they squeezed was deserved.
>
> >>--------------------------------------------------
>
> >>3.20 What about the DRV land reform 1953-1956?
>
> >>The U.S. propaganda lie: Ho had 50,000 people killed.
>
> >>Ho Chi Minh did not order, approve, or have prior knowledge of any
killi=
ngs.
> >> (see "Ho Chi Minh", William Duiker, 2000 and "Ho", 2007, David
Halbers=
tam)
>
> >>The number killed is "highly" controversial, but 3000 "may" have died.
> >> (sup****ted, below, by Duiker, Moise, and Spencer)
>
> >>(see index for land reform pages)
> >>----------------------------------
>
> >>History Professor Ed Moise of Clemson University posted
> >>"the number was almost certainly between 3,000 and 15,000."
>
> >>According to Spencer Tucker, who uses Moise as one reference,
> >>"probably fewer than 8,000" were killed.
> >>(Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War, 2000, Spencer Tucker, p.219)
>
> >>Duiker wrote "Although the actual number of people executed
> >>during the campaign is *highly* controversial, even sympathetic
observer=
s
> >>concede a minimum of 3,000 to 5,000 *may* have died"
> >>("Ho Chi Minh", William Duiker, 2000 p.488).
>
> >>(Moise, Duiker, and Spencer all sup****t the "may" be 3,000)
>
> >>Moise - Clemson University History professor.
> >>Tucker - VMI Military History professor. (retired)
> >>Duiker - Penn State University History Dept. (retired)
> >>--------------------------------------------------
>
> > Ed Moise used only do***ents from DRV and thus his number was not
> > reliable. The recent numbers released from communist insiders such as
> > Bui Tin and Nguyen Minh Can are much more accurate. Do***ent from Vien
> > Kinh Te Vietnam in Hanoi in 2007 also provided a better figure.
> > However, because of the statistics of the land reform campaign, the
> > 2007 issue of Vien Kinh Te Vietnam was recalled, only a few escape.
> > Stanley Karnow did not know the exact number of victims so he said
> > that it was in the thousands.
>
> > Karnow wrote about the land reform campaign in his book, Vietnam a
> > History (1997, p. 241) below:
>
> > "Instead, motivated by ideology, he proceed to categorize peasants in
> > five cl*****, ranging from "landlord" to "farm worker"; the idea was
> > insane. In contrast to the South, where large holdings were common,
> > very few peasants in the north possessed more than three or four
> > acres. But the Communist leaders concluded that "landlords" and other
> > "feudal" elements represented 5 percent of the rural population, and
> > they dispatched platoons of cadres to liquidate them.
> > Starting in 1955. cadres set up "agricultural reform tribunals" and
> > zealously began to fulfill their quotas. In a village of two thousand
> > inhabitants, for example, they had to arraign twenty alleged
> > "land=AClords." The program touched off atrocities throughout the
> > country. Anxious to avoid indictment, peasants trumped up charges
> > against their neighbors, while others accused their rivals of
> > imaginary crimes. Anyone suspected of having worked for the French was
> > executed as a "traitor," and other victims included those who had
> > shown insufficient ardor toward the Vietminh. The cadres, under
> > pressure, singled out alleged culprits on no pretext at all. One group
> > of cadres, re****ting that it could discover only two "landlords" in a
> > certain village, was ordered back to find six more, which it did by
> > selecting a half dozen peasants at random. Many cadres themselves
> > seized the property of the condemned, or spared their own relatives.
> > The Communists have never published an official count of those killed
> > in the land reform, but thousands died. And thousands more were
> > interned in forced labor camps. In August 1956, shortly after the
> > campaign, Ho publicly confessed that "errors have been committed" and
> > promised that "those who have been wrongly classified as landlords and
> > rich peasants will be correctly reclassified." The Communists
> > dutifully echoed his admission, disclosing that even loyal Vietminh
> > veterans had been unjustly tried and executed. Thousands of survivors
> > were released and sent back to their villages amid exhortations to the
> > nation to forgive and forget. But tensions continued as victims of the
> > repression took revenge against the cadres who had persecuted them. In
> > several areas, peasants refused to obey directives, and North Vietnam
> > foundered in an atmosphere of suspicion and apprehension Describing
> > the mood, the official Hanoi newspaper, Nhan Dan, wrote that "brothers
> > no longer dare to visit each other, and people dare not greet each
> > other in the Street."
> > Ho's appeal came too late to prevent an eruption of indignation in his
> > native Nhge An province, where peasants had spontaneously defied the
> > French twenty-six years before. The new uprising started on
No=ACvember
> > 2, 1956, when local peasants presented a protest petition to Canadian
> > members of the International Control Commission, the group created at
> > the Geneva conference to monitor the armistice. Soldiers dispersed the
> > peasants with rifle butts, and by nightfall, violence was sweeping
> > through the province..."
|
