Re: let them have a national referendum

small tortoiseshell wrote:

> On Apr 25, 11:20 am, bluej <fjin...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
>>On Apr 25, 10:36 am, small tortoiseshell <_cl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
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>>>On Apr 25, 8:51 am, bluej <fjin...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>On Apr 25, 1:32 am, small tortoiseshell <_cl...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>On Apr 25, 12:46 pm, bluej <fjin...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>On Apr 24, 12:07 pm, Robert Epstein <vze25...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>bluej wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Here are some historical facts you may want to consider before
lending
>>>>>>>>a no-brainer sup****t to the 'free tibet' propaganda. Tibet was
>>>>>>>>integrated into China in the 11th century.
>>
>>>>>>>Integrated!  Ha ha, that's a good one.  How exactly did that come
about?
>>>>>>>  WIth the consent of Tibetans?  [nope.]
>>
>>>>>>>   It only truely governed
>>
>>>>>>>>itself between 1913 and 1951 due to British invasion and China's
civil
>>>>>>>>war. Most Tibetans were slaves
>>
>>>>>>>proof, please
>>
>>>>>>>   and Tibet was not a good place to be
>>
>>>>>>>>during this period.
>>
>>>>>>>Whereas it was great to be in China during their Civil War.
>>
>>>>>>>   When China reasserted itself in 1951,
>>
>>>>>>>Reasserted?  Ha ha, how did it do that?  By crusing the Tibetans
and
>>>>>>>enslaving them itself.  Good one!
>>
>>>>>>>   it abolished
>>
>>>>>>>>slavery and gave Tibet special autonomy.
>>
>>>>>>>Well, being under the forced rule of a foreign power is not an end
to
>>>>>>>slavery in my opinion, but if you like it, fine for you personally.
>>>>>>>Don't impose it on others.
>>
>>>>>>>   Life expectancy and
>>
>>>>>>>>population soared in Tibet afterwards. A Tibetan family can have 3
>>>>>>>>children despite the 1-child policy. Mountain was scaled--a
>>>>>>>>engineering feat--to build railroad for Tibet's economic growth.
>>
>>>>>>>ie, some of the mountains were destroyed so that the Chinese army
could
>>>>>>>get in and out without opposition.
>>
>>>>>>>>Tibetans also enjoy more financial sup****t from the government
than
>>>>>>>>any other minority.
>>
>>>>>>>Except there are now more Chinese that have taken over the land and
many
>>>>>>>of the Tibetans have been jailed or chased out.  Good job!
>>
>>>>>>>   Study the history and you will find that life for
>>
>>>>>>>>an average Tibetan got better when Dailai Lama went to exile.
>>
>>>>>>>Depends on how you define "better."  Being forced to take on a
foreign
>>>>>>>culture, having your own destroyed, your leaders jailed, killed or
>>>>>>>exiled.  Sounds good to me!
>>
>>>>>>>   The
>>
>>>>>>>>Tibetan exile community--rich monks and nobles--will always use
>>>>>>>>religion as an instrument to their separatist movement and play
>>>>>>>>victims of oppression. Why couldn't they since they receive
millions
>>>>>>>>in funding from CIA according to the do***ent released by the
state
>>>>>>>>department. Carving-up countries like china is in the interests of
>>>>>>>>U.S. imperialism. That's why they befriend Dailai Lama and paints
him
>>>>>>>>as a humanitarian, despite the fact that Dailai's self-serving
agenda
>>>>>>>>will take Tibet back to the middle age. And the fraud of his
>>>>>>>>humanitarianism! He never condemned the militant separatists who
>>>>>>>>barbarously burned Han- and Tibetan- Chinese alive during the
recent
>>>>>>>>riot.
>>
>>>>>>>Please provide some evidence that anyone was burned alive during
the
>>>>>>>recent protests.  You must at least have pictures of some charred
bodies
>>>>>>>to show.  Right?
>>
>>>>>>>   Instead his attitude towards the riot borders on acquiescence.
>>
>>>>>>>Acquiescence?  You mean he accepts the fact that Tibetans want to
throw
>>>>>>>off their Chinese masters?  For shame!
>>
>>>>>>>>The is man is a political op****tunist no matter what good PR he
gets
>>>>>>>>from the western media.
>>
>>>>>>>And you are a brainwashed minion.
>>
>>>>>>>You know the sad thing is that the Chinese people are indeed a most
>>>>>>>wonderful people; and ones from whom I have personally gotten so
much
>>>>>>>cultural and spiritual benefit.  In my own spiritual development I
have
>>>>>>>benefited from Taoist arts like T'ai Chi and have had at least one
>>>>>>>wonderful Chinese teacher; Ch'an Buddhism, also from China; and
even in
>>>>>>>the area of food and tea I am practically part-Chinese.  It is a
shame
>>>>>>>that the country of China, which has so much good in it and so much
to
>>>>>>>share, has to practice aggression against its neighbors and deny it
with
>>>>>>>propoganda, as well as practice its own internal oppressive
political
>>>>>>>controls.  It does not really fit the independent Chinese
character.  I
>>>>>>>hope some day the Chinese people will be free to develop themselves
as
>>>>>>>they choose, without living under an authoritarian structure and
>>>>>>>imposing it on others.  This is how I really feel.
>>
>>>>>>>Best,
>>>>>>>Robert
>>
>>>>>>>===================================
>>
>>>>>>You requested pictures of burned victims during the riot. Here are
the
>>>>>>5 girls burned to death by Tibetan rioters. I can provide more but
>>>>>>don't know if you genuinely want to see them or just want to
challenge
>>>>>>me with providing proof.
>>
>>>>>he will only reply that the photos are made up by the chinese
>>>>>propaganda machine and toss some insults at you instead,
>>>>>so save your self the trouble and let it go...
>>
>>>>>>http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21251&d=...
>>
>>>>>>They were working at a boutique supposed owned by Han-Chinese.
However
>>>>>>one of the victims was actually Tibetan. One survior, another
Tibetan
>>>>>>girl, told re****ters that they were cornered by a bunch of Tibetans
>>>>>>pretending to be shoppers. When they started burning the shop, she
>>>>>>made a run for her life at the risk of being knifed to death by the
>>>>>>rioters. She survived, the other 5 didn't. Also a family-run
autoshop,
>>>>>>two parents, their 8-month old son, and two employees, all Han-
>>>>>>Chinese, were killed in hiding from rioters when they started a
>>>>>>petroleum gas fire in the shop. And many more arsons like this. So
far
>>>>>>5 Tibetans were arrested relating to these arsons, 3 female, 2 male.
I
>>>>>>don't know how to translate their names though.
>>
>>>>>>Please stop being lazy and watch the actual riot footage 'VIDEO :
>>>>>>2008 Tibet (Lhasa) Riot, the Truth and Lies- Part 1-4'
athttp://www.anti-cnn.com/
>>
>>>>>>where rioters terrorized both Han and Tibetan residents. Note in
part
>>>>>>3 where Nepalnese police beating monks were re****ted as Chinese
>>>>>>police. Also CNN cropped original pictures and interpreted it as
>>>>>>people running away from police truck, but in fact, the original
>>>>>>picture shows rioters throwing rocks at the truck. Sorry about the
>>>>>>language barrier in some information provided. I trust you to
>>>>>>formulate your own conclusions with information not made available
to
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>>>>I wanted to give him the respect of backing up my views with empirical
>>>>evidence. You are probably right though. Some people will love you for
>>>>telling the 'truth' they want, and will hate you for telling them
>>>>something different. I used to believe that facts speak for
>>>>themselves, but apparently not, given the systematic media bias by way
>>>>of misrepresentations and distortions.
>>
>>>this link gives some info. it seems. maybe you posted it already, but
>>>if not
>>>it might be of help to some...
>>
>>>http://www.swans.com/library/art9/mparen01.html
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>>Hope they are interested in reading sober and balanced research and
>>analyses. Thanks for the link. :)
> 
> 
> 
> most welcome. I am one of ' they'  as well of course. Just for mention
> I am probably less informed then Robert about politics in general and
> us/china policy in particular,but sometimes digging up a little
> information helps in getting the perspectives a little more balanced.
> I didnt know until yesterday what i found out about u.s. involvement
> in cambodia pr.ex, during the vietnam war. i knew about Laos but not
> cambodia, and not the extent of it either, and that came up because
> tang mentioned Khieu Sampan and then i started googling... So thanks
> both of you actually. without roberts anti communist fits

I'm not anti-communist.  I'm anti-torture, anti-forced labor, 
anti-imprisonment without trial, anti-invason and takeover of other 
countries, whether they are Tibet or Iraq.  I don't care if the country 
is communist or capitalist, I am against those practices, as I assume 
you are too.  So stop your own fit of anti-Robert-ism and try to be 
truthful instead of poisonous.

   and your
> information i wouldnt have looked for this andwouldt have found SWANS
> as well. lots of good stuff in there.
> 
> Thanks :)
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