On 5=D4=C21=C8=D5, =CF=C2=CE=E711=CA=B147=B7=D6, bmo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> On May 1, 4:58 am, "fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
" <fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 5=D4=C21=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E79=CA=B131=B7=D6, bmo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 30, 5:58 pm, "fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
" <fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > > > On 5=D4=C21=C8=D5, =C9=CF=CE=E73=CA=B122=B7=D6, bmo...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > > > > On Apr 30, 8:34 am, "fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
" <fyfp...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:=
>
> > > > > > When people refuse to face truth, all sides can keep arguing
end=
lessly
> > > > > > and there will be no result.
>
> > > > > > I think the truth regarding Tibet is as follows:
> > > > > > (1) CCP did free the slaves in Tibet when it first came to
Tibet=
> > > > > > (2) Mao did turn the Tibetans, together with the people in
other=
> > > > > > provinces of China, into slaves again for a new slave owner
name=
d Mao.
> > > > > > (3) CCP is now called Chinese Capitalist Party and is doing a
> > > > > > wonderful job in lifting many Tibetans out of poverty and
turnin=
g them
> > > > > > into petty bourgeois.
>
> > > > > > While the Tibet independence activists refuse to admit (1) and
(=
3),
> > > > > > the nationalist Chinese students refuse to admit (2), and the
We=
st
> > > > > > refuses to admit (3).
>
> > > > > There is also
> > > > > (4) Many Tibetans in Tibet are unhappy with Chinese rule
>
> > > > > The Chinese government and its apologists like LT Lee refuse to
ad=
mit
> > > > > (4).
>
> > > > >http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/the-wishes-of-a-tibetan/
>
> > > > > > So what is the point ofdebate? Might as well call it
adjourned.=
>
> > > > > > Lunch time!
>
> > > > > Or admit that 1-4 are all true and try to understand that China
ne=
eds
> > > > > to acknowledge that there is a big problem there. The West
should
> > > > > accept (3) and I think in general it has. But by denying (4) the
> > > > > Chinese government denies reality. This inevitably leads to big
> > > > > problems because the society is not anywhere nearly as
"harmonious=
" as
> > > > > the Chinese government says it is.
>
> > > > There had to be a thick layer of discontent before it could be
ignit=
ed
> > > > to cause so much destruction. I am not sure if this level of
> > > > discontent is due to the 'Chinese rule' and whether the discontent
> > > > would have disappeared under the rule of Dalai Lama. What I can
do =
is
> > > > to speculate on the reason. I think the reason is that many
Tibetan=
s
> > > > feel they have been marginalized in the modernization process. I
> > > > heard from a very authoritative source that most businesses in
Lhasa=
> > > > are owned by non-natives such as the Hans and the Muslims. That
sai=
d,
> > > > it would simply suggest that the central government has not done a
> > > > satisfactory job in terms of income redistribution in order to
even
> > > > out the fallouts from economic development. In the West, there
are=
> > > > programs such as Affirmative Action programs meant to redress the
> > > > issue, and have been there with various debatable outcomes.
>
> > > > On the other hand, too much government interference can cause the
> > > > natives to become a bunch of welfare recipients, or something no
one=
> > > > wants to see...
>
> > > > Thus the issue does not have much to do with human rights,
religious=
> > > > freedom and the other jazz....
>
> > > It is at least partially about religion and human rights. Even
though
> > > the Chinese government tries to keep the rest of the world from
> > > getting info about Tibet, it's pretty clear from what has gotten out
> > > that Tibetans are unhappy and want the Dalai Lama to return.-
=D2=FE=
=B2=D8=B1=BB=D2=FD=D3=C3=CE=C4=D7=D6 -
>
> > > - =CF=D4=CA=BE=D2=FD=D3=C3=B5=C4=CE=C4=D7=D6 -
>
> > There are two issues here:
> > (1)Tibetans are unhappy. But how unhappy are they? What is the % of
> > people who are unhappy?
>
> The exact number is hard to get because for obvious reasons it is hard
> to get info out of Tibet. But if you make an honest effort to get info
> it becomes clear that the answer is "a lot".
There can never be a true answer, no matter how you measure it. There
are just too many non-quantifiable elements involved. If you confine
your research to what is quantifiable, such as the increased number
of native Tibetan business owners, the picture would be much clearer.
>
> > (2)The Tibetans who are power and wealth conscious are certainly not
> > welcoming back DL.
>
> I disagree. It is possible to be spiritual and interested in acquiring
> wealth. If this is a foreign concept to you then maybe you have more
> to learn.
>
I don't see how your reply is related to what I asked.
> > And there are not that few of them inside Tibet.
> > The whole notion that Tibet would become a peaceful and tranquil
> > Shangreli once DL descends upon Potola is a Hollywood fiction and does
> > not match reality.
>
> That is a straw man. That is not the claim. But it certainly would
> help the situation if the Dalai Lama returned.
Would the situation be impossible with DL?
There would be much
> work to do but in the long run it would benefit both Tibetans and
> Chinese.
>
> > Tibetans need modernization like anyone else.
> > I know some Tibetans in HK. They are no more spiritual than you and
i.
>
> Speak for yourself. And spirituality need not exclude modernization.-
=D2=
=FE=B2=D8=B1=BB=D2=FD=D3=C3=CE=C4=D7=D6 -
Again, how is your reply related to what I raised?.
>
> - =CF=D4=CA=BE=D2=FD=D3=C3=B5=C4=CE=C4=D7=D6 -
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