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Origin of Chinese spoken languages

by Barbie <nospam@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 12, 2008 at 12:39 PM

Origin of Chinese spoken languages

Part 1.

Around the world, spoken languages eventually leaded to development of 
various writing systems. An exception is Chinese spoken languages. 
Contrary to other spoken languages, they were generated and evolved from 
a writing system, called Hanja or Hanzi, and not vice versa.

Chinese spoken language is probably unique in that they were evolved from 
written languages. It is comparable to a hypothetical scenario where a 
spoken language is evolved from mathematical expressions, which is 
universal. Despite language barriers, scientists and mathematicians 
around the world can communicate with mathematical equations, although 
the pronunciations of the mathematical symbols may be radically different 
depending on their spoken languages. This is why Chinese people can 
communicate by their unique writing system, but may not understand each 
other by different spoken languages called Chinese dialects.

I have been curious about the origin of Chinese spoken languages, They 
are radically different from neighbouring languages, especially Altaic. 
The Chinese grammar is more similar to Indo-European rather than Altaic. 
How could this have happened?

Several years ago, I read a very interesting article on the origin of 
Chinese language: http://www.discover.com/issues?/mar-
96/features/empireofunifo?rmi715/

In this article, the author attributed the uniformity of current spoken 
Chinese languages (low diversity) to the political unification ever first 
achieved by the Chin emperor (221 BCE). He speculated that there once 
were far diverse spoken languages in the current Chinese continent. He 
cited Europe as an example, where far more diverse spoken languages still 
are existent, despite the similar area comparable with the modern 
People's Republic of China.

I am not saying his idea is entirely wrong. I agree that it may partially 
explain the uniformity in modern Chinese spoken languages. However, the 
major factor was the unification by the writing system called Hanja. 
Hanja has been pronounced differently among groups, but could be 
understood by writing. This is possible because Hanja has been 
ideographic. Today, Koreans and Japanese also use Hanja, but 
pronunciations are different. In summary, the Hanja was a kind of 
universal symbols in the ancient Far East Asia, which is comparable to 
modern mathematical symbols, but more complex in the sense that they can 
be used beyond simple scientific representations to be adopted as a way 
of representing spoken languages at least partially.

I hypothesize that Chinese spoken languages were evolved based on the 
Hanja writing system, not vice versa. I speculate that once there were so 
many spoken words in ancient Chinese continent but most of them were 
perished as the unification proceeded. In modern Korean and Japan 
languages, there are hundred-thousand onomatopoeic/mimetic words 
existent. In Chinese spoken languages, they even do not have a character 
(or word in spoken Chinese) representing basic concepts, not to 
mentioning lack of onomatopoeic/mimetic words. For example, 'sorry', 
'girl', 'boy' are a kind of basic words found around the world, but 
Chinese characters simply do not have it. Once they had them, but they 
perished by the unification enforced by the unique writing system. 

Part 2.

Chinese spoken languages are actually written languages, because they 
were evolved from an ideographic script called Hanja or Kanji. I provided 
an additional evidence: tones in Chinese spoken languages.

Is there anybody who dares to argue that so much diverse tones found in 
modern Chinese existed before the invention of Hanja? It is obvious to me 
that tones have been developed to differentiate homonyms of Hanja 
characters. Chinese people did not develop any writing system or modified 
Hanja to denote tones, again suggesting that Hanja was not evolved from 
spoken languages, but that Chinese spoken languages were modified and 
changed to accomodate the Hanja scripts by sacrificing their diversity 
(or entropy in the sense of information capacity). The Hanja has molded 
Chinese spoken languages into current forms of Chinese dialects. The 
entropy of spoken Chinese words greatly decreased but the entropy of 
tones increased pro****tionally.

Part 3

Monosyllabic, isolating spoken language could not exist. 

Would it be just a coincidence that Chinese spoken language is isolating 
exactly the same way as the Hanja scripts? People and so-called linguists 
want to believe that Hanja scripts represented so well ancient Chinese 
spoken languages to be 100% isolating as we see now. This defies our 
common sense. Spoken languages in the world are typologically categorized 
as 1) inflectional, 2) agglutinative and 3) isolating languages. Chinese, 
Vietnamese, Cantonese, Cambodian, and possibly Riau Indonesian belong to 
the isolating languages. Except the last, the isolating feature is 
related with Chinese influence. Thus, the Chinese spoken language is the 
unique isolating language in the world. Because of their enormous 
population size, linguists probably had no choice but to include their 
language as a major category of spoken languages. But, it is nearly 
impossible that 100% isolating language could ever exist. As we see in 
Vietnamese and Tibetan, a certain degree of inflection is needed to 
function as a spoken language.

Another unique feature of Chinese is being 'monosyllabic' according the 
definition of a Chinese syllable. Vietnamese also has been traditionally 
considered to be a monosyllabic isolating 
languagehttp://www.geocities.com/SoHo/?Den/5908/language/intro.html.

However, Vietnamese shows a pronounced tendency for using bi- or 
polysyllabic structures. And some suggest that once Vietnamese were 
polysyllabic. This Vietnamese example suggest that it is quite possible 
that at least some of current Chinese dialects were once polysyllabic.

Now, Chinese languages have two idiosyncratic features: monosyllabic + 
isolating. Is it possible that "monosyllabic" + "isolating" languages 
could ever have existed in ancient time before an invention of writing 
system? My answer is definitely "No". But, I agree that it could exist 
for very, very primitive societies. But, if any society evolved to a 
degree of sophistication to invent any writing system, monosyllabic, 
isolating languages were simply unimaginable. Even with just isolating 
features, it is difficult to figure out syntax structure, but anyway 
Chinese people now live and speak with that isolating languages.

How could ancient people could understand a syntax by monosyllabic AND 
isolating languages? To express meaning and syntax together, we need a 
certain degree of entropy in the sense of information capacity such as 
16-bit or 32-bit computer processors. You can not edit a movie or songs 
with 8-bit processors. The entropy in monosyllabic, isolating languages 
is too low to express meaning and syntax together even for basic daily 
life in the ancient time. How many words could they express in 
monosyllabic language? The only solution to this degree of limitation is 
adopting tones to increase the entropy.

Ancient Chinese initially used tonal systems to distinguish various 
homonyms before the invention of Hanja script? The answer is obviously 
No. Chinese tones were developed ad hoc to distinguish various homonyms 
in Chinese characters. Instead of developing polysyllabic words, Chinese 
people applied various tones to each Hanja character to make it function 
as a polysyllabic word. They adopted polytonal words instead of 
polysyllabic words.

Why have they been so much attached to monosyllabic rule instead of 
developing polysyllabic words? The answer is that they could not escape 
from the Hanja script and its isolating feature. Despite of recent 
Chinese government's effort, Chinese are still attached to the Hanja 
script. It seems that they will never escape from the isolating Hanja 
script.

As it is impossible that the so called 'monosyllabic, isolating" 
languages ever existed without help of a writing system and tones, it is 
certain that Chinese spoken languages were originally neither 
monosyllabic, nor isolating.

The current two features of Chinese spoken dialects are a product of ad 
hoc adaptation to the Hanja scripts. This seems obvious if we compare the 
degree of changes between Chinese spoken languages and the Chinese 
writing system, at least since the middle Chinese period. Spoken Chinese 
changed dramatically and dynamically while the writing system has been 
nearly stagnant.

If A changes but B does not change, then A influences B, or B influences 
A? The answer is too obvious. Let's try to think reversely: Isolating 
Hanja scripts molded ancient spoken Chinese dialects into monosyllabic 
and isolating languages.

Part 4

Branches come from a root; a root does not come from branches. 

I think this evidence alone is enough to sup****t my theory that the 
common ancestor of modern Chinese spoken languages was the writing system 
called Hanja. This evidence is too obvious, but human stupidity and 
stubbornness always prevails to make it difficult to escape from a 
stereotype and preoccupation. Thus, I need to show excessive list of 
evidences sup****ting my theory.

There are several dialects in the Sinitic languages such as Mandarin, Wu, 
Hsiang, Kan, Hakka, Yueh and Min. They differ from each other to about 
the same degree as today's Romance languages. Most of the differences 
occur in pronunciation and vocabulary; there are few grammatical 
differences. But, strangely to most Westerners, they can almost 
understand each other by the common written languages.

This no longer would look strange if they could realize that the very 
common ancestor language was the written language. Can a baby have more 
than two biological mothers? Linguists and Chinese are answering to this 
question by saying 'Yes'. If the Chinese writing system came from several 
different spoken languages, how could there be a universal written 
language that matches well with all of the different spoken languages, 
both phonetically and grammatically? By chance or by magic? Please let me 
know how this could happen.

An alternative explanation is that the different spoken languages have 
radiated from the common ancestor language. The uniqueness here is that 
the common ancestor was a written language rather than a spoken language. 
This explanation is so easy and simple to understand. Why are they afraid 
of accepting this uniqueness and desperately keeping the obviously 
nonsensical belief that the root should have came from branches? 
Linguists and archaeologists so far have insisted or believed that a baby 
called Hanja writing system should have come from several biological 
mothers collectively called ancient Chinese spoken languages. Their 
belief defies the principle of the Nature.

Part 5.

I happened to find a book that sup****ts my theory. I cite this book and a 
related review as my 6-th evidence sup****ting my theory that Chinese 
spoken languages came from the isolating Hanja script:

The Roots of Old Chinese (Amsterdam Studies in the Theory and History of 
Linguistic Science, Series IV: Current Issues in Linguistic Theory) by 
Laurent Sagart Hardcover: 255 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 9.00 x 0.75 
x 6.50 Publisher: John Benjamins Publi****ng Co; (August 1, 1999) ISBN: 
1556199619 Unfortunately, I can not afford to purchase this book 
($122.00). I just quote a part of a well written review from amazon.com 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obi?dos/tg/detail/-/1556199619/qid?=10986871...

"This trailblazing book presents a truly radical hypothesis. It argues 
that Old (loosely: Early and Mid-Zhou) Chinese had a rich affixal 
morphology, typologically comparable to many SE Asian languages today, 
but radically divergent from its medieval successor(s) and modern dialect 
descendants. It is radical in the sense that it once and for all destroys 
the myth of Old Chinese (OC) as an isolating, static, purely monosyllabic 
language, recorded in a writing system divorced from the spoken variety 
underlying it. Reintegrating a full-fledged theory of morphology into the 
reconstruction of the OC lexicon and its phonology, Sagart convincingly 
subverts almost all basic assumptions about the nature of 'the' Chinese 
language, which have periodically havocked rational interpretations of 
Chinese culture, history and philosophy, ever since the days of the 
_lettres ?ifiantes_. Assumptions, one hastens to add, which are still 
guilelessly cherished by the majority of sinologists and general 
linguists alike." 

Thanks for the anonymous reviewer. You can read the remaining part at 
amazon.com.

In my humble opinion, the author of this book could have got a better 
inspiration if he could have considered my main point: Chinese spoken 
languages were originated from the isolating written language called 
Hanja script. It's so pity that I am not any kind of linguist to publish 
in linguistics journals (I should be satisfied with this kind of news 
group where only terrapin's eggs are dominant). Yes. It is indeed 
radical, but the degree of radicality is pro****tional to our deep-rooted 
stereotype and preoccupation which usually is based on political 
propaganda.

Part 6

Mysterious linguistic and genetic relation****ps of Chinese 

Linguists generally have said or assumed that Sinitic languages are 
closely related with Tibetan, whereas archaeologists and anthropologists 
suggest that people in Pacific islands who speak Austronesian are closely 
related to modern Chinese people, especially southern Chinese including 
Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) people [1, 2, 3, 4, 7]. Why does this discrepancy 
occur? When considering both language and genetics, Chinese is closer to 
Tibetan or Austronesian?

I think the language family name called Sino-Tibetan is the most absurd 
one in language classifications. I strongly believe that population size 
of Chinese people should not be a factor in classifying spoken languages 
in the world.

Let me quote from Britannica online [8]: Sino-Tibetan languages 

"Sinitic stands apart from Tibetic and Burmic on many grounds, including 
vocaburary, morphology, syntax, and phonology. Most scholars agree on 
combining Tibetic and Burmic into a Tibeto-Burman subfamily, ..." 

"This relation****p is now more commonly considered nongenetic in that 
most of the shared vocabulary is more likely attributable to a history of 
cultural borrowings than to derivation from a common ancestral 
language." 

Also, in other references, Tibet-Chinese family is controversial because 
of Tibeto-Burman.

This again demonstrates the power of reproduction capacity. The 
classification problem lies in Chinese, not in Tibeto-Burman. Of course, 
Chinese people are majority, but I believe it should not a factor in 
language classification.

What are the common things between Sinitic and Tibeto-Burman, except that 
some Tibeto-Burman languages were heavily influenced by the Hanja scripts 
to show spurious phonological resemblance? Please list for me what you 
can show here.

* Hmong-Mien

Because people in the Pacific Islands shows close genetic relation****p 
with Hmong-Mien people in China, it is quite possible that the languages 
also could have been related. But, we do not see the clear relation****p 
between Austronesian and Hmong-Mien, at least according to P.D. Daniels 
here. However, there is some suggestion that Hmong-Mien could be included 
as Austronesian: "The Miao ethnic group has its own language which 
belongs to the Miao-Yao Austronesian of Chinese-Tibetan Phylum." [5]

Again, why the same kind of discrepancy occurs in Miao-Yao people and 
their languages. About 1 year ago (May 2003), I proposed Hmong-Mien 
(Miao-Yao) languages as vestiges of the lost homeland language for 
current Austronesian [6]

For example, let me quote a paragraph from a paper titled "Language trees 
sup****t the express-train sequence of Austronesian expansion." [7]

"Languages, like molecules, do***ent evolutionary history. Darwin 
observed that evolutionary change in languages greatly resembled the 
processes of biological evolution: inheritance from a common ancestor and 
convergent evolution operate in both. Despite many suggestions, few 
attempts have been made to apply the phylogenetic methods used in biology 
to linguistic data. Here we re****t a parsimony analysis of a large 
language data set. We use this analysis to test competing hypotheses--the 
"express-train" and the "entangled-bank" models--for the colonization of 
the Pacific by Austronesian-speaking peoples. The parsimony analysis of a 
matrix of 77 Austronesian languages with 5,185 lexical items produced a 
single most-parsimonious tree. The express-train model was converted into 
an ordered geographical character and mapped onto the language tree. We 
found that the topology of the language tree was highly compatible with 
the express-train model." 

Looking the genetic/linugistic relation****p between Chinese and Pacific 
Islanders and the Hmong-Mien languages, it seems obvious that Chinese 
spoken languages were once closer to Austronesian languages, but that 
they radically diverged from the common ancestor of Sinitic and 
Austronesian.

* Hypothesis

Why? Because Hanja scripts began to mold ancient Chinese spoken languages 
into isolating and monosyllabic languages, after separated from 
Austronesian. At the same time, the political unification by the Chin 
emperor (221 BCE) accelerated this process.

How can I test my hypothesis here? I here predict, based on my theory, 
that Chinese spoken languages became no longer inflictive and 
polysyllabic only after the major immigration of Austronesian people 
started. Physical anthropologists can estimate the approximate time of 
immigration by genetic clock or other genetic calculations based on the 
rate of mutations. Linguists can estimate the time when Chinese languages 
became isolating and monosyllabic. Taking bigger risk, I can predict that 
the two events occurred nearly simultaneously. Do not forget that taking 
bigger risk guarantees more validity of my theory. Thus, I take this 
bigger risk. I will welcome anybody who is willing to compare these two 
time lines to falsify my theory: Isolating Hanja scripts molded ancient 
spoken Chinese dialects into monosyllabic and isolating languages 

Reference

[1] Gibbons, A. 2001. The Peopling of the Pacific. Science. Volume 291,>> 
Number 5509, Issue of 2 Mar 2001, pp. 1735-1737. 
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/?content/summary

[2] Yanagihara R, Nerurkar VR, Scheirich I, Agostini HT, Mgone CS, Cui X, 
Jobes DV, Cubitt CL, Ryschkewitsch CF, Hrdy DB, Friedlaender JS, Stoner 
GL. 2002. JC virus genotypes in the western Pacific suggest Asian 
mainland relation****ps and virus association with early population 
movements. Hum Biol 74(3):473-88.

[3] Terry Melton, Stephanie Clifford, Jeremy Martinson, Mark Batzer, and 
Mark Stoneking. 1998. Genetic Evidence for the Proto-Austronesian>> 
Homeland in Asia: mtDNA and Nuclear DNA Variation in Taiwanese>> 
Aboriginal Tribes. Am. J. Hum. Genet. 63:1807-1823.

[4] "Farmers and Their Languages: The First Expansions" by Jared Diamond1 
and Peter Bellwood. Science. Volume 300, Number 5619, Issue of 25 Apr 
2003, pp. 597-603. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/?
content/full/300/5619/597/FIG2

[5] http://www.travelchinaguide.co?m/intro/nationality/miao/

[6] http://groups.google.com/group?s?selm=eb309be5.0305080944.d0a?b664%
40po... g.google.com

[7] Gray RD, Jordan FM. Nature. 2000 Jun 29;405(6790):1008-9. Language 
trees sup****t the express-train sequence of Austronesian expansion.

[8] http://www.britannica.com/eb/a?rticle?tocId=75005


Reposted on May 12, 2008
 




 10 Posts in Topic:
Origin of Chinese spoken languages
Barbie <nospam@[EMAIL   2008-05-12 12:39:45 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
the Fucking Boudha <v  2008-05-12 02:32:37 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
the Fucking Boudha <v  2008-05-12 02:38:57 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
the Fucking Boudha <v  2008-05-12 02:40:27 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
mkao <mkao@[EMAIL PROT  2008-05-12 03:54:47 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
pg <penang@[EMAIL PROT  2008-05-12 08:32:50 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
Mohammed the Holy Fucke  2008-05-13 02:32:18 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
taisun <taisun@[EMAIL   2008-05-13 07:54:46 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
uUGLY2 <jismquiff@[EMA  2008-05-13 08:31:25 
Re: Origin of Chinese spoken languages
Jesus Christ the Holy C  2008-05-13 20:46:47 

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tan12V112 Tue Dec 2 2:20:26 CST 2008.