Re: China: Mandate of heaven?

On May 26, 5:34=A0pm, BobLee1964 <boblee1...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> On May 26, 4:24=A0am, Jim Walsh <jimNOwalsSPA...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 26 May 2008 03:42:52 +0800, BobLee1964 wrote
> > (in article
> > <feea9300-b465-4716-9aaa-d1871ae58...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>):
>
> > > On May 25, 4:30=A0am, Jim Walsh <jimNOwalsSPA...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> > >> On Sun, 25 May 2008 08:03:35 +0800, BobLee1964 wrote
> > >> (in article
> > >>
<e9e3cf0d-b750-4339-a0df-53b57b78d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>):
>
> > >>> On May 22, 8:48=A0am, Jim Walsh <jimNOwalsSPA...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
wrote:=

> > >>>> On Thu, 22 May 2008 13:36:49 +0800, BobLee1964 wrote
> > >>>> (in article
> > >>>>
<7f5279d3-dfc4-4e04-b1ed-49814a13d...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>)=
:
> > >>>>> Hong Kong is autocratic.
>
> > >>>> No, it is not. Autocratic countries do not permit free speech,
free=
 press,
> > >>>> freedom of religion etc.
>
> > >>>> Autocratic countries do not permit substantial economic freedom.
>
> > >>> Autorcratic only means that the ruler (theoretically) has the
power
> > >>> exclusively. Hong Kong chief executive appoints judges, and is a
lot=

> > >>> more powerful than the legislature. His power is from the central
> > >>> government and a small group of elites, not from a popular
election.=

> > >>> And he has the exclusive power unrivaled to rule Hong Kong. Isn't
Ho=
ng
> > >>> Kong an autocratic society? At least it is NOT nearly as
democratic =
as
> > >>> Iraq.
>
> > >>> Said that, it does not mean that autocratic society does not have
> > >>> substantial freedoms. It only means that the ruler has the power
to
> > >>> curtail / =A0take away the freedom if he or she sees fit. Many
paren=
ts
> > >>> are autocratic, but their kids still have freedom to pursuit some
> > >>> happiness.
>
> > >>>>> For example, the most im****tant political
> > >>>>> move in Hong Kong for the last ten years is that the Chief
Executi=
ve
> > >>>>> requested the central government to interpret the basic law and
re=
vert
> > >>>>> a decision by the Hong Kong supreme court. The move was made by
th=
e
> > >>>>> Chief Executive alone. Cheered by many though.
>
> > >>>> This decision is famous because it is a virtually unique example
of=
 CCP
> > >>>> interference with a Hong Kong court. In autocratic countries,
nearl=
y every
> > >>>> court decision is made by the autocrat.
>
> > >>> Don't be so ridiculous. No autocrat can make every court decison
and=

> > >>> is still expected to survive for more than a month. The workload
wil=
l
> > >>> kill him or her.
>
> > >> Every court decision in the PRC is subject to the concurrence of
the =
CCP.
> > >> That is the official procedure.
>
> > > What is this official procedure to get the concurrence of the CCP
for
> > > every court decision? Mind to give any references?
>
> > Sure. This has been widely do***ent. The following Duke Law School
journ=
al
> > article is typical.
>
> >http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?17+Duke+J.+Comp.+&+Int'l+L.+533
>
> > Excerpts follow:
>
> > Owing to the CCP's political program and tight organizational
structure,=
 its
> > influence is ubiquitous at every level and in every aspect of
contem****a=
ry
> > Chinese society; it determines the direction of society and
government.
>
> > The institutions charged with administering justice (the People's
Courts=
 and
> > People's Procuratorates) are certainly no exception. Since 1949, all
the=

> > Presidents of the People's Supreme Court and the Chief Procurator of
the=

> > Supreme Procuratorate, except Shen Junru, the first President of
People'=
s
> > Supreme Court, have been CCP members and secretaries of the leading
Part=
y
> > group of the organization. Although there is commonly a non-CCP-member
V=
ice
> > President or Deputy Procurator, they are all carefully selected by the
C=
CP
> > organizational branch and trusted by the CCP; in some particularly
im****=
tant
> > policy decisions, these non-Party officials may be invited to
participat=
e in
> > an expanded meeting of the leading party group of their institution.
>
> > It should be pointed out that because of the Party's ubiquitous
institut=
ional
> > presence and because of the nature of the social revolution in China,
th=
e
> > Party's organizations and leaders (through administrative and other
agen=
cies)
> > have directly and indirectly influenced, interfered in, and even at
time=
s
> > manipulated the judicial process.
>
> > NOTE: the writer of all these statements sup****ts the CCP, and
considers=
 the
> > CCP's interference in the courts as, on the whole, a positive thing.
See=
 the
> > following excerpt]
>
> > However, we cannot, indeed, we should not, simply look at this as
unfair=

> > interference. To be sure, the Party's mistaken interference in the
judic=
ial
> > system and its policy errors have led to some disastrous consequences.
Y=
et
> > even during the most extreme moments, such as Cultural Revolution
> > (1966-1976), there were CCP organizations and officials, who, within
the=

> > scope of their ability and influence, prevented and reduced the
unfairne=
ss or
> > radicalism in some cases, including instances in the judicial sphere.
> > Although today it is quite popular to attribute all the problems of
the =
PRC
> > to the CCP or the revolution led by the CCP, it is hard to imagine
that =
the
> > current state of Chinese society and the judicial system would
necessari=
ly be
> > better off without the modern revolution and economic development led
by=
 the
> > CCP.
>
> Your reference falls far short of sup****ting the claim that Every
> court decision in the PRC is subject to the concurrence of the CCP and
> that is the official procedure.

Actually professor Zhu argued that judicial independence can be
accomplished under the one party system. Justice ultimately reflects
the people's sense of justice more than the system set up.

>
> Every decision should be based on the laws passed by the CCP
> controlled People's Congress. It is not a lawful practice that the
> judges seek direct approval from anyone, including CCP leaders.
>
> Actually the CCP controlled government works hard to give the judicial
> system some dependences from the local officials, and they don't want
> to see corrupted judges/police/prosecutors colluded with corrupted
> officials.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -