On Oct 2, 1:42 am, Michele Dondi <bik.m...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> Note: crossposted to some supposedly relevant groups. If anyone has
> better ones to suggest, then they're welcome.
>
> For people reading this outside of clpmisc, the question arose with
> the following post:
>
> <news:sfvqs4-b8b.ln1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> which in turn was in response to an observation of mine. The whole
> thread is available from GG at the following URL:
>
>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=3Dsfvqs4-b8b....@[EMAIL
PROTECTED]
>
>
>
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> On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 02:59:52 +0100, Ben Morrow <b...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> wrote:
>
> >You have a good point; however, as is usual in English grammar,
> >arguments from ancestry don't always help :). For instance, if
'optimum'
> >and derived words are necessarily superlative, then 'optimized' means
> >'made best', and A cannot be more optimized than B either. A has either
> >been 'made best' or it hasn't.
>
> I'm not sure. 'To optimize' could mean 'to try to reach the optimum'
> (or optimal incarnation - of something) thus 'optimized' may mean 'to
> have undergone the process of optimization', thus to have gone as much
> as possible (wrt some constraints, e.g. time) towards the optimum
> without necessarily reaching it. By contrast I see 'optimal' very much
> as a synonym of 'optimum' itself, and personally I find much more
> acceptable the expression 'more optimzed' than 'more optimal'.
>
> >I think what has happened is that, in English, 'optimal' and
> >'optimized' have acquired something of a sense of 'efficient', which is
> >clearly comparative, rather than of 'best' in a more general sense. So
>
> That they have been or are occasionally used in that sense may well
> be, but I would be surprised to learn that they have actually
> "acquired" it. If I paste the remaining two entries found by dict
> (which I snipped last time), namely:
>
> : From Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0 :
> :
> : 24 Moby Thesaurus words for "optimal":
> : best, champion, choice, elect, elite, for the best, greatest,
> : handpicked, matchless, optimum, paramount, peerless, picked,
prime,
> : prize, quintessential, select, supreme, surpassing, unmatchable,
> : unmatched, unparalleled, unsurpassed, very best
> : =20
> : =20
> :
> :
> : From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03) :
> :
> : optimal
> : =20
> : 1. Describes a solution to a problem which
> : minimises some cost function. Linear programming is one
> : technique used to discover the optimal solution to certain
> : problems.
> : =20
> : 2. Of code: best or most efficient in time,
> : space or code size.
>
> you will see that the last one, which is specifically aimed at CS and
> IT -and it's actually relevant here- still does not mention just
> "efficiency". Thus my take on the issue is that 'optimal' is not just
> 'efficient' as alleged, but 'the most efficient'. All this, still at a
> syntactical level, i.e. we're not discussing yet what "efficient"
> could mean.
>
> I'll repeat myself: maybe this strikes me more strongly because of my
> implicit Latin heritage, but I still find 'more optimal' to sound like
> 'more most efficient'.
>
> >optimizing a program doesn't necessarily make it better, it simply
makes
> >it more efficient: other things may be more im****tant than efficiency,
>
> This is semantics. "better" and "more efficient" are both
> comparatives. That other things may be more im****tant than efficiency
> (and indeed I think they are) is irrelevant to the linguistic point
> being discussed here.
>
> >****tability or readability for example. 'Optimum' has not (I would say)
>
> We're not necessarily speaking of computer programs here, and although
> it is not in the dictionaries I mentioned before I think that the
> italian definition I found for 'ottimale' may well be translated in
> English, which is what I'm trying to do now:
>
> : adj: of something that, according to some determinate parameters or
> : points of view, represents the *best* possible condition or the *best*
> : possible result: e.g. optimal life conditions.
>
> If you accept this, then you can still speak in the context of
> programming of a
>
> >changed like this, so I find it odd that the dictionaries you quoted
say
> >it is synonymous with 'optimal': I would entirely agree that 'more
> >optimum' is obviously wrong.
>
> In all earnestness I had never witnessed the use you're re****ting of
> 'optimal', namely that in which it is not a superlative. But
> admittedly I do not read *that* much in English.
>
> >Theory aside, a quick google shows that 'more optimal' is definitely
> >acceptable usage; for instance (a random example from the results)
>
> Huh?!? Google may show that "ur so c00l bro" is acceptable usage!!
>
> > This is because the claim that A is more optimal or better adapted
> > than B with respect to some function does not entail that A is
> > optimal or even good with respect to that function.
>
> >
http://www.seop.leeds.ac.uk/archives/fall1999/entries/teleology-biol=
ogy/
>
> >which shows that 'optimal' can have the sense of 'efficient' or
> >'effective' rather than simply 'best'.
>
> Well, that is from an academic institution thus should not fall in the
> "ur so c00l bro", but I'm still skeptical: young researchers, however
> good may they be in their research field, often tend to speak and
> write very bad in their own mother tongue. For example in Italy some
> young mathematicians are beginning to use the horrible anglophonic
> "surgettiva" in place of the traditional "suriettiva", not that a word
> borrowed from English is so bad in and of itself, but it is when
> there's a perfectly fine alternative in one's own language.
>
> > [English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on
> > occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them
> > unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary.
> > -- James Nicoll
>
> I knew that. In fact it's amongs my .sigs!
>
> Michele
> --
> {$_=3Dpack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=3Dsub{pop^pop}->(map substr
> (($a||=3Djoin'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB=3D'
> .'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=3D~/./g)x2,$_,
> 256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=3D/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
Yes, vocabulary in English was made rich by the words from many other
languages. These languages were of the places where British and
English moved in the course of history. I saw a website which helps in
knowing words and building vocabulary. It is www.buildingvocabulary.org.
|
